Slain In The Spirit?

[popestpiusx]

I provided the link for the quote above.

As to Gods positive will:
I'll try to say it again, perhaps differently. God positively will One Truth. That truth is to be found in fullness Only within the Catholic Church. God does not positively will that that Truth spread into other religions (in themselves), but rather, that other religions (or members thereof) come to accept the one Truth within the One True Church. It does prots little good to believe in the Trinity but reject everything else. Satan believes in the Trinity, he just hates It. It does Muslims very little good to believe in one 'God' if they reject the most fundamental truths about the One True God. Small pieces of the truth may be nice for dialogue, but they do not prove that God has willed these other religions in a positive way, nor does it affect (bring about) their salvation. Their salvation can only come through the One True Church, which alone is willed by God.

[popestpiusx]

How did this thread go from debating Charismaticism to debating divine positive will? It was probably one of my tangents. Sorry to whoever started this thread. This is a most intetesting discussion though.

Edited March 17, 2004 by popestpiusx

[p0lar_bear]

Regarding "being slain" or "resting in the Spirit:"

In their booklet on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, John and Therese Boucher define this phenomena as “an intense awareness of God’s peace that involves an ecstatic concentration on God’s presence and usually a shutdown of voluntary movements like standing or speech for a short time.”

The Church has not made a specific pronouncement on “resting in the Spirit.” While the Church does not deny the possibility of this experience, she has made no all-encompassing ruling about such reported cases. This is because as in all such cases of extraordinary events, a careful, informed and unbiased observation and discernment is needed to judge authenticity.



Regarding "Baptism in the Holy Spirit:"

This is definitely not a sacrament or part of a sacrament. Baptism and Confirmation are full and complete without it. However, properly understood, "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is in line with Catholic Faith. In their 1997 document "Grace for the New Springtime," the USCCB used this phrase:

[quote]As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.[/quote]

I do concede that the phrase can be misunderstood.



Regarding the Charismatic Renewal in general:

Aside from the USCCB, both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in support of the Charismatic Renewal.

In a May 30, 1998 audience, the Holy Father said:

[quote]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church's constitution. They contribute although differently to the life, renewal, and sanctification of God's People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church's charismatic dimension that before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of grwoth has been established for ecclecial movements and new communities.[/quote]

[quote]Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us![/quote]

See also his June 24, 1992 General Audience. [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19920624en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html[/url]

Cardinal Ratzinger's statement is in "The Ratzinger Report." It is a passing mention of new ecclesial movements that are to be commended.

[popestpiusx]

It must be conceded that these are merely the opinions of the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger. They are not binding in any way, so to oppose the CCR is perfectly legitimate.
Secondly, the USCCB has no authority whatsoever in itself, except that which it recieves from the Holy Father in individual siuations and even then, only with final approval from the Holy See. In other word, they have no jurisdictional authority over any bishop (or his diocese) until something becomes particular law. This is a good thing considering the loads of nonsense that have come out of that organization.

Edited March 17, 2004 by popestpiusx

[p0lar_bear]

I know what the USCCB is and what authority it does and does not have. I did not quote the document as any sort of binding statement. I provided the quote simply to show that the phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit" can legitimately be used.


While the statements by the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger are not part of official pronouncements, they are still significant and should not be dismissed. In addition, the Catechism, Lumen Gentium, Pope Paul VI, and the Bible all offer support for the legitimacy of the extraordinary charisms.

While there are valid concerns and criticisms of some parts and groups within the Charismatic Renewal, I do not think it is legitimate to condemn the movement as outside of or contrary to the Church. I also think that is is contrary to official Church teaching to say that the extraordinary charisms do not exist or are demonic in nature. Quite a number of canonized saints have recieved these gifts. Whether any given manifestation of these charisms is authentic requires discernment.

[let_go_let_God]

I've been slain once during WYD in Toronto. I was just praying for a friend after the Pope spoke the night in Downsview Park. The next thing that I knew I had fallen in a heap of garbage and all my friends were praying over me and I didn't know what had happened. The only one who could explain it to me was a friend of mine who was a seminarian then and even he was confused because he had never witnessed it before. According to my knowledge it isn't that rare of an occurance but it is. (If that makes any sense)

Until Later--
LGLG

[phatcatholic]

these articles are interesting, as they address how "baptism in the Holy Spirit" relates to Confirmation.

[b]--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap060400.htm"]Confirmation and "Baptism in the Holy Spirit"[/url]
--[url="http://www.religion-cults.com/spirit/baptism.htm"]Catholic Charismatic "Baptism" with the Holy Spirit[/url]
--[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c17.htm#q6"]How Does Confirmation Relate To A Conversion Moment?[/url]
--[url="http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=605"]Why Don't Catholics Speak In Tongues After Confirmation?[/url]
--[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Aug2001/Wiseman.asp#F3"]Why Don't We Speak in Tongues After Being Confirmed?[/url]
--[url="http://catholic.net/baltimore_catechism/template_article.phtml?article_id=792&channel_id=14#RTFToC31"]The Holy Spirit and the Apostles[/url][/b]

i hope this helps.............pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Donna]

Polar, thanks for the info. I also appreciated the post following yours for its info; and maybe it was not addressed to just you, but to point out what it did to the others reading this thread.

Hope all is well with ya.

PS: Phat, are you sure you want to get into all that again? Weren't there like 21 pages in the Baptism in the Spirit thread?

[i]Libera nos, Domine![/i]

Edited March 19, 2004 by Donna

[PedroX]

Polar Bear should post more often.

peace...

[Donna]

So should he who wrote that Polar Bear should post more often.




*being uncommonly nice this eve*

[Homestarlover85]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Mar 16 2004, 01:29 AM'] I just wonder, how come you never see any Missionaries of Charity being slain in the spirit? They certainly are examples of holiness, and the Holy Spirit in their lives is quite evident. How come they aren't falling down all over themselves?

Now, I've been "slain in the Spirit" twice. Once while a woman was praying with me, and another time in my friends living room while she was praying with me. I'm not sure if it was from the Holy Spirit or not, but neither time did it produce any fruit that I could see. It was like a restful prayer, but certainly no evidence of a powerful anointing of the Holy Spirit. [/quote]
you raise a good point, about the sisters. BUt perhaps its not that they arent getting "slain" just that we arent always present in a venue, or have the opportunity to see them "slain

[-I---Love]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Mar 14 2004, 04:07 PM'] ...also, can something similar to this be used, like some hypnotic trick? [/quote]
Thanks to those who started this thread...very enjoyable.

As regarding hypnosis, hypnosis can only be successful if someone that is being hypnotized also wills it to happen...so if someone that is supposedly laying their hands on another is planning to use hypnosis on them then the person "being blessed" would have to be in on this as well as purposely concentrating on one specific object, thought etc. Otherwise there is no hypnosis.

Furthermore "slain in the spirit" or what appears to be such as we don't know for sure necessarily even when it happens to ourselves is I'd say pretty common among those who take part in the Charismatic mvmt. and such.

Sadly I can't remember the quote but I recall perhaps JPII (maybe not him) saying paraphrased that the Charismatic mvmt. should not have been necessary because Catholics should be open to the Spirit at all times, but that the Spirit should be often visibly poured out esp. at Baptism, Confirmation, and such, but that we are lacking and so a mvmt. had to take place to call for an acknowledgment and openness to the Spirit and that is the Charismatic mvmt.

Also, I've thought about grouping "slain in the spirit" occurences into 4 categories:

1) demonic

2) The Holy Spirit

3) The individuals action (ie; falling over) was brought on by a human force that they were either totally unaware of or subconsciously or unconsciously aware of. Either they themselves had emotional needs that needed to be fulfilled and so they used the laying on the hands as a means to fulfill that need and then sought an "openness" to the Spirit and in their mind became peaceful and brought about the action thinking that it was really from the Spirit and they thought they should not reject the Spirit and so they sort of coaxed themselves to fall (or whatever) so not to reject God. Also, those laying the hands on them could have enticed them to fall or whatever, they themselves fulfilling their own emotional needs, by physically and indiscretely pushing those they were blessing to fall. (I'm just using falling as the example as it is common)

4) Staged - the person consciously faked the whole thing for whatever reason

what do ya think bout the 4 categories?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:02 AM'] these articles are interesting, as they address how "baptism in the Holy Spirit" relates to Confirmation.

[b]--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap060400.htm"]Confirmation and "Baptism in the Holy Spirit"[/url]
--[url="http://www.religion-cults.com/spirit/baptism.htm"]Catholic Charismatic "Baptism" with the Holy Spirit[/url]
--[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c17.htm#q6"]How Does Confirmation Relate To A Conversion Moment?[/url]
--[url="http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=605"]Why Don't Catholics Speak In Tongues After Confirmation?[/url]
--[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Aug2001/Wiseman.asp#F3"]Why Don't We Speak in Tongues After Being Confirmed?[/url]
--[url="http://catholic.net/baltimore_catechism/template_article.phtml?article_id=792&channel_id=14#RTFToC31"]The Holy Spirit and the Apostles[/url][/b]

i hope this helps.............pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
Thanks for the articles.