Slain In The Spirit?

[Paladin D]

I was [b]"slained in the spirit"[/b] so to speak at a Benny Hinn Crusade a while ago... I just fell down. When some people fell on my legs, it didn't hurt at all, I just felt pressure.

Not sure if it was really the Holy Spirit, or what.

[popestpiusx]

Jake,
Fr. Cantalamessa is no mainstay of orthodoxy. For instance, in his Good Friday sermon (March 29, 2002) at St. Peter's Basilica (with the Holy Father and numerous other Vatican officials in attendance) he stated that other religions “are not merely tolerated by God but positively willed by him as expressions of the inexhaustible richness of his grace and his will for everyone to be saved." This is what is referred to as "material heresy". To say that God has [b]positively[/b] willed other religions is absurd.

If the renewal was pentecostal (which I agree that it was), then it was not in fact Catholic. I'll post another article that I have on it later (when I find it).

Until then, here is another tidbit from Fr. Hardon (taken from an article entitled "Mystics and Mysticism"):
Mystics may finally be persons who manifest charismatic phenomena. Such phenomena do not occur in the normal development of the spiritual life. They are called charisms because they are given by God for the benefit of others than the mystic. In other words, these phenomena are apostolic by nature. They may be true miracles, like private revelations, divine locutions, the stigmata, speaking in tongues, levitation, transportation through space, knowing events at a great distance of space, the gift of prophecy.
It is here, especially, that we must carefully distinguish between the mystic and these phenomena. It does not follow that because a person has these phenomenal gifts that he or she is necessarily either very holy or even gifted with infused contemplation. The single most important thing to remember about these charismatic gifts is that they are not for the benefit of the person who possesses them. If genuine, such charismata are always for the benefit of others. They are apostolic and not personal gifts from God.
We shall say more on the subject before this conference is over. For the present, it is enough to note that what are commonly called mystical phenomena may be produced by persons and forces that are not only not spiritual or supernatural. They may be abnormal indeed, but either the result of natural, psychic powers, or even demonic in their origin.


I, for one, will stick with Fr. Hardon's assesment.

Edited March 16, 2004 by popestpiusx

[IcePrincessKRS]

At a Steubenville conference my brother was slain in the Spirit. He said he was kneeling praying and sort of fell over, he tried to move and get up but he couldn't. He was sort of aware but unable to function. He said kids all around him were praying and some were praying over him--one girl was praying in Spanish and he could understand every word she said (he's never taken nor does he speak a word of Spanish, he took like a year of French). I hadn't thought of this before, but maybe what the girl was praying was some sort of praying in tongues and he was given the gift to understand it at that moment, or maybe it was just some special part of being slain in the Spirit. Some of you probably know that I don't really adhere to much of the more emotionally charged "charismatic" type things but I believe my brother's experience was born of something really given by the Holy Spirit because he's pretty much like I am and veers away from the more charismatic things and more towards the "traditional" (not traditional as in SSPX, but you get what I mean, right?)

Dislaimer: I'm not dissing anything of the Charismatic movement here, I just don't feel that its for me--I'm leery of it because I know people who have been adversely affected by it, but I don't deny that it does have good fruits as well. I'm just more of a quietly pray in Adoration kind of girl (as opposed to charismatic prayer meeting or FOP [festival of praise] that they have here in Steubenville).

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 16 2004, 10:39 AM'] Jake,
Fr. Cantalamessa is no mainstay of orthodoxy. For instance, in his Good Friday sermon (March 29, 2002) at St. Peter's Basilica (with the Holy Father and numerous other Vatican officials in attendance) he stated that other religions “are not merely tolerated by God but positively willed by him as expressions of the inexhaustible richness of his grace and his will for everyone to be saved." This is what is referred to as "material heresy". To say that God has [b]positively[/b] willed other religions is absurd.

If the renewal was pentecostal (which I agree that it was), then it was not in fact Catholic. I'll post another article that I have on it later (when I find it).

Until then, here is another tidbit from Fr. Hardon (taken from an article entitled "Mystics and Mysticism"):
Mystics may finally be persons who manifest charismatic phenomena. Such phenomena do not occur in the normal development of the spiritual life. They are called charisms because they are given by God for the benefit of others than the mystic. In other words, these phenomena are apostolic by nature. They may be true miracles, like private revelations, divine locutions, the stigmata, speaking in tongues, levitation, transportation through space, knowing events at a great distance of space, the gift of prophecy.
It is here, especially, that we must carefully distinguish between the mystic and these phenomena. It does not follow that because a person has these phenomenal gifts that he or she is necessarily either very holy or even gifted with infused contemplation. The single most important thing to remember about these charismatic gifts is that they are not for the benefit of the person who possesses them. If genuine, such charismata are always for the benefit of others. They are apostolic and not personal gifts from God.
We shall say more on the subject before this conference is over. For the present, it is enough to note that what are commonly called mystical phenomena may be produced by persons and forces that are not only not spiritual or supernatural. They may be abnormal indeed, but either the result of natural, psychic powers, or even demonic in their origin.


I, for one, will stick with Fr. Hardon's assesment. [/quote]
Do you have a link so that we can verify what he actually said.

It's hard to tell. Not that I don't trust you or anything... But seriously, I can throw quotes around some text and say, Fr. such and such said whatever...

Our Holy Father, I don't believe, would tolerate such "heresy" within his ranks, unless it wasn't really heresy.

[God Conquers]

I don't think that that statement is heresy at all.

The Church teaches that other religions hold Truth, not the fullness, but some Truth. God posiitvely wills the revelation of Truth, and so indirectly positively wills other religions, not as oponents of the fullness of truth but as stepping stones towards it.

[BLAZEr]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 16 2004, 11:39 AM'] Jake,
Fr. Cantalamessa is no mainstay of orthodoxy. For instance, in his Good Friday sermon (March 29, 2002) at St. Peter's Basilica (with the Holy Father and numerous other Vatican officials in attendance) he stated that other religions “are not merely tolerated by God but positively willed by him as expressions of the inexhaustible richness of his grace and his will for everyone to be saved." This is what is referred to as "material heresy". To say that God has [b]positively[/b] willed other religions is absurd.

[/quote]
Ummm, didn't God "will" at least one other Religion . . . called Judaism???

[popestpiusx]

[url="http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200204/0083.html"]http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200204/0083.html[/url]

And yes blaze, he did positively will Judaism, but Christ fulfilled the old Law. The Church replaced Judaism, which sets itself up in opposition to divinely revealed truth (namely the Word incarnate) and cannot therefore be said to be positively willed now.

[popestpiusx]

God Conquers,

God does not positively will other religions. He wills One Truth and One Faith. The Catholic Church alone posseses the fullness of that truth. What truth is found in other religions is merely accidental to them and not essential. In other words, other religions do not posess truth in themselves, but rather "barrow" it (not exactly the most precise way to put it) from the Catholic Church who alone posseses all Truth.

In other words, God positively wills one and only one religion: The Catholic Church. All other religions may participate in that truth but do not possess it "in themselves". They are false religions and as such God cannot positively will them. It is logically impossible as it would contradict His very nature.

[BLAZEr]

Ummm, but isn't God timeless?

How can he will something once and then not will it now? Does that mean God Changes?

[Donna]

He cannot change.

Pius X, you are correct. I can't say this right, but the Christ coming, and the Mass, and all of the Faith was clearly prophesied and pointed to way before the Incarnation.

The Jews who did not stay with the fulfillment of the faith of Abraham,[i] cut themselves off[/i] from the same God -and the one religion He positively willed- that they had served for centuries, once He was made Flesh, instituting the Holy Sacrifice, etc;.

The more Jesus fulfiled the prophecies (I'm thinking esp. Malachai w/ the prediction of the abolishment of the animal sacrifice, the inclusion of the Gentiles and the "clean oblation" made "in every place", etc;) the more certain particular Jews turned away.

Edited March 17, 2004 by Donna

[BLAZEr]

Now Donna, that I can agree with.

God did willed it all at once. The will was for the bringing about of the Incarnation. The Jews were a step to this will.

[popestpiusx]

God has always willed one truth in eternity. In time we distinguish between the divine positive will and God's permissive will. God positively willed the existence of Judaism as His chosen people. He positively wills the existence of the Catholic Church as the fulfillment of his revelation, not opposed to but in fulfillment of Old Covenant Judaism. Judaism (post-Christ) rejects that revelation, rejects the Church, rejects Christ, and ultimately rejects God (though not explicitly). God wills the existence of Judaism (or any other false religion) then according to his permissive will, not his positive will. In other words, he keeps them in being, and does not (nor can he) inhibit their free will, but he does not positively will that they are Jews, rather, he permits it.

I hope that makes more sense than my last post. God Bless!!

PSPX

[Donna]

Well said, both times, PopestpiusX (what do we call you for short?).

Hey, Blazer. You put it very concisely that last post!

[popestpiusx]

Pius would suffice. Certainly not pope, especially not saint. Even Pius is far to dignified for me. Perhaps I should change my name. Maybe PSPX? But then people may say that is to close to SSPX. Oh well, call me whatever you want. And thank you for the compliment.

[Aloysius]

i agree with PSPX. however, i would like to see a documentation of that quote. i should hope that context would shed light to show he didn't actually mean that?

God positively wills all the parts that other religions have taken from us, such as protestants taking the doctrines of the Holy Trinity and Jesus the Christ, whereas He does not will the heresies that formed around those, such as an invisible church and non-submission to the Roman Pontiff. He does will the truths Muhammed stole from Christianity and Judaism, like that there is only one God who created all things, but He does not will the heresies Muhammed made up because he didn't understand the doctrine of the Trinity, such as that there is no trinity, that Jesus Christ didn't die on the cross and wasn't God. Those things He certainly does not will.

God positively wills that His revealed truth spread into other religions, with the ultimate goal that they would come to find all the truth but with the short term goal that they would know a lil more about Him. God does not positively will that those religions and those people stay seperate from His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, however.