God And Hell And Free Choice

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732445' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:59 AM']What's the issue again? Hell being a place? If it is a place why is that a problem?[/quote]

It would be a problem for the modern Catholic Church which teaches hell is not a place but a state. in other words it would be a problem for the billions of sinners who choose hell expecting eternal seperation but end up in a pool of fire.

[quote]I was proving that the essence and chief pain of hell is the eternal separation from God, not the pains of sense which are caused by the [i]fire[/i].[/quote]

At what point did you prove it"?

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732470' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:21 AM']It would be a problem for the modern Catholic Church which teaches hell is not a place but a state. in other words it would be a problem for the billions of sinners who choose hell expecting eternal seperation but end up in a pool of fire.[/quote]

The "state" of Hell doesn't exclude "place."

The damned would much rather be in a pool of fire than eternally separated from God.
[quote]At what point did you prove it"?[/quote]
Even the quotes you provided from the Baltimore Catechism prove it.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732478' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:33 AM']The "state" of Hell doesn't exclude "place."

The damned would much rather be in a pool of fire than eternally separated from God.

Even the quotes you provided from the Baltimore Catechism prove it.[/quote]

If it proves that then it proves hell is a literal place of fire and henceforth unjsut, evil, and round and round we go.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732480' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:38 AM']If it proves that then it proves hell is a literal place of fire and henceforth unjsut, evil, and round and round we go. [/quote]

So if it weren't a literal fire it wouldn't be unjust?

Sorry... I don't follow...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732470' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:21 AM']It would be a problem for the modern Catholic Church which teaches hell is not a place but a state. in other words it would be a problem for the billions of sinners who choose hell expecting eternal seperation but end up in a pool of fire.[/quote]

The Church teaches that Hell is a place in that it exist, but it is also a state. But not a place like New York City is a place, not like you would have us believe. Because Hell is outside of time. The descriptions of Hell such as "pool of fire" "where the worm dieth not" are parables, a dumbing down for humanity because Hell true existence can not be understood completely by humanity. There is no problem here, but your lack to understand the Church's teaching on the existence of hell.

Edited December 20, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732481' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:40 AM']So if it weren't a literal fire it wouldn't be unjust?

Sorry... I don't follow...[/quote]

As I've argued the concept of eternal punishment for sins is unjust. I can tolareat a man, having known god and willingly chosen to reject god for a life of sin, knowing the consequences of his choice would condemn himself to an eternity of separation from god. It doesn't mean I accept it, it just means, at this point I can tolerate it. This is of course pending on free will which I reject. But as you soon as you start introducing concepts such as punishment, fire, physical torture, misery ever and all this as somehow a rational choice of a rational man, the punishment becomes unethical and unjust.

[bonkers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732482' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:41 AM']The Church teaches that Hell is a place in that it exist, but it is also a state. But not a place like New York City is a place, not like you would have us believe. Because Hell is outside of time. The descriptions of Hell such as "pool of fire" "where the worm dieth not" are parables, a dumbing down for humanity because Hell true existence can not be understood completely by humanity. There is no problem here, but your lack to understand the Church's teaching on the existence of hell.[/quote]

I think it's your lack of understanding. Read the bible and Augustine and Aquinas and what they taught on the subject of hell. What about Lazarus? What about Lucia and her 3rd secret? What of Gehenna, a literal burning tip. Dante's inferno. At some point we're allowed to stop prtending we don't know anything or we're too stupid to question the rationality of such things and think for ourselves.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732495' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:59 AM']I think it's your lack of understanding. Read the bible and Augustine and Aquinas and what they taught on the subject of hell. What about Lazarus? What about Lucia and her 3rd secret? What of Gehenna, a literal burning tip. Dante's inferno. At some point we're allowed to stop prtending we don't know anything or we're too stupid to question the rationality of such things and think for ourselves.[/quote]

I read the Bible nearly every day. Parables. Parables. Parables. All parables.

Edited December 20, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[bonkers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732497' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:01 AM']I read the Bible nearly every day. Parables. Parables. Parables. All parables.[/quote]

Yep, when it makes sense it's literal, when it doesn't it's a parable or a metaphor and we need someone smarter than us to figure it out.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732495' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:59 AM']I think it's your lack of understanding. Read the bible and Augustine and Aquinas and what they taught on the subject of hell. What about Lazarus? What about Lucia and her 3rd secret? What of Gehenna, a literal burning tip. Dante's inferno. At some point we're allowed to stop prtending we don't know anything or we're too stupid to question the rationality of such things and think for ourselves.[/quote]

For a better response, the story Jesus told of Lazarus in hell was a parable. Jesus used Gehenna as a parable. Lucia third secret in the dealing with the visions of hell where parables in the scene the true existence of hell was 'dumb' down so they could understand it. But "Lucia third secret' is not dogmatic Church Teaching, Catholics do not have to believe those, or any vision of Mary. They do have to believe in the existence of hell. Dante's Inferno is a imaginative poem, based on the parables of hell from the bible.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732498' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:03 AM']Yep, when it makes sense it's literal, when it doesn't it's a parable or a metaphor and we need someone smarter than us to figure it out.[/quote]

The two examples you came up with which where from the bible where indeed parables. Sorry.

[bonkers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732501' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:10 AM']For a better response, the story Jesus told of Lazarus in hell was a parable. Jesus used Gehenna as a parable. Lucia third secret in the dealing with the visions of hell where parables in the scene the true existence of hell was 'dumb' down so they could understand it. But "Lucia third secret' is not dogmatic Church Teaching, Catholics do not have to believe those, or any vision of Mary. They do have to believe in the existence of hell. Dante's Inferno is a imaginative poem, based on the parables of hell from the bible.[/quote]

That Lazarus is a parable is a modern view. Gehenna? Meh. Fire and burning and all that. Re Lucia she used words like "fire" and "smoke", so it's likely that's what she really meant. Dante's inferno was the popular depiction of hell at the time, although I accept it as allegorical.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732553' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:00 PM']That Lazarus is a parable is a modern view. Gehenna? Meh. Fire and burning and all that. Re Lucia she used words like "fire" and "smoke", so it's likely that's what she really meant. Dante's inferno was the popular depiction of hell at the time, although I accept it as allegorical.[/quote]

Because the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable does not mean that the characters in the story where actual persons, and certain the existence of hell is real. Gehenna was a trash dump, where the Jewish people took and burnt their trash. Christ used it as a parable of hell.

Hell is a place of 'fire' and torment or great unpleasantness, but the 'fire' is the eternal fire thus above our understanding. If you have any logic surely you would agree that if God does in fact exist that our understanding of Him, Heaven and Hell would be something like a ants understanding of The President of the United States, Washington DC, or any other city. He is above us in all ways, and His ways are above us. For Him to explain and show things to us He must do so as if He is talking to children so that we can understand.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732492' date='Dec 20 2008, 03:55 AM']As I've argued the concept of eternal punishment for sins is unjust. I can tolareat a man, having known god and willingly chosen to reject god for a life of sin, knowing the consequences of his choice would condemn himself to an eternity of separation from god. It doesn't mean I accept it, it just means, at this point I can tolerate it. This is of course pending on free will which I reject. But as you soon as you start introducing concepts such as punishment, fire, physical torture, misery ever and all this as somehow a rational choice of a rational man, the punishment becomes unethical and unjust.[/quote]

Well, this doesn't explain why it's unjust.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732577' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:23 PM']Well, this doesn't explain why it's unjust.[/quote]

I explained it earlier in the thread. Consider this hypothetical scenario;

You live a good Catholic life, you live according to what you believe to be truth, and you have hope you are going to heaven. You die, and you find yourself in hell, suffering both physical and spiritual torments. You realise it is not Jesus who is truth, it is Allah. You were wrong, and now you are going to suffer incredible torment and torture forever and ever. A Muslim would explain you had a choice, you chose to reject Allah, and therefore you chose an eternity in hell. Would this, in your own opinion, be the judgement of a just, fair and loving god?