Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='bonkers' post='1732418' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:29 PM']Of course, it's not just quoting text, the "exposition" is implied. I'm sure mortify can figure it out.[/quote] It is not the responsibility of the reader to formulate your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 The Baltimore Catechism is not a part of the Magisterium and I think on the level of the Baltimore Catechism Vs. the Fathers, the understanding of the Fathers wins hands down. Universal Salvation is condemned by the Church, this is one of the reasons Origien or Tertullian ( I can't remember which one) was condemned. Even if you can't feel God's energies (or Grace as latins might call it) doesn't mean He hasn't provided you with them. It just requires one to be open to receiving them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732420' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:33 AM']What does this have to do with anything I have said in this thread recently?[/quote] I made a off the head comment about Islamic debate over the subject, you responded with a statement about Ibn Hanbal's statments reguarding anthromorphic statment s in the Qur'an. I just wanted to clarify that this was a distinct matter from God's judgement with reguards to heaven and hell. [quote]There is a great gulf between Islamic theology and Christian theology; thus, I do not see any point in bringing up what Muslims believe about hell, since Christians (both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox) and Muslims approach their sacred texts differently.[/quote] Sure. It was not intended to divert the thread into a discussion about God's judgement in Islam. I just read through this and, while I found your statments about eastern Christian thought quite interesting , it reminded me how I never heard a good explination of hell. The matter makes me a bit tired so I just made a top of the head comment expressing that exasperation. That God's arbitrary decision seemed about as valid as anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Universal salvation is condemned, but universal redemption is not. As St. Maximos would say: through the incarnation of the Logos all men have been given ever-being (i.e., redemption to everlasting existence), but ever-well-being (i.e., heaven) or ever-ill-being (i.e., hell) is determined by man's own free action in cooperation with God's grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Formosus' post='1732424' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:37 AM']The Baltimore Catechism is not a part of the Magisterium and I think on the level of the Baltimore Catechism Vs. the Fathers, the understanding of the Fathers wins hands down. Universal Salvation is condemned by the Church, this is one of the reasons Origien or Tertullian ( I can't remember which one) was condemned. Even if you can't feel God's energies (or Grace as latins might call it) doesn't mean He hasn't provided you with them. It just requires one to be open to receiving them.[/quote] I googled Tertullian and it looks like he taugh a universal salvation theology. I think Origien taught the Son was somehow lesser than the Father or something like that. I really don't remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732425' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:39 PM']I made a off the head comment about Islamic debate over the subject, you responded with a statement about Ibn Hanbal's statments (sic) reguarding (sic) anthromorphic (sic) statment (sic) s in the Qur'an. I just wanted to clarify that this was a distinct matter from God's judgement (sic) with reguards (sic) to heaven and hell.[/quote] Nevertheless, Islamic theology is irrelevant in this discussion. What Muslims believe about heaven and hell and predestination is not a part of this particular thread. Of course you are free to create a thread on that topic if you want. [quote name='Hassan' post='1732425' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:39 PM']Sure. It was not intended to divert the thread into a discussion about God's judgement (sic) in Islam. I just read through this and, while I found your statments (sic) about eastern Christian thought quite interesting , it reminded me how I never heard a good explination (sic) of hell. The matter makes me a bit tired so I just made a top of the head comment expressing that exasperation. That God's arbitrary decision seemed about as valid as anything else.[/quote] God is not capricious. Man's destiny is in his own hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732426' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:40 AM']Universal salvation is condemned, but universal redemption is not. As St. Maximos would say: through the incarnation of the Logos all men have been given ever-being (i.e., redemption to everlasting existence), but ever-well-being (i.e., heaven) or ever-ill-being (i.e., hell) is determined by man's own free action in cooperation with God's grace.[/quote] Is there any good introduction text to Eastern Christian thought you would recomend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732427' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:43 PM']I googled Tertullian and it looks like he taugh a universal salvation theology. I think Origien taught the Son was somehow lesser than the Father or something like that. I really don't remember [/quote] Both Tertullian and Origen were heretics. That is why they are not glorified as saints in the liturgy of the Church. Most of the Greek Fathers accused of teaching universal salvation were actually teaching universal redemption to ever-being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732423' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:37 AM']It is not the responsibility of the reader to formulate your argument.[/quote] Sigh. I wasn't formulating an argument, I was providing direct, authentic evidence to supprot my arguments throghout this thread. The arguement was that historically the church is a literal place and involes two kinds of punishment; spiritual (which catholics agree) and physical which is denied by catholics but expllicity stated in authentic catholci teaching which I provided. I don't at any time recall you being moderator of this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732429' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:46 PM']Is there any good introduction text to Eastern Christian thought you would recomend?[/quote] Almost anything written by Fr. Meyendorff or Fr. Georges Florovsky would be good. A good primary source text to read would be the second volume of the [i]Philokalia[/i], which contains many of the writings of St. Maximos the Confessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bonkers' post='1732431' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:47 PM']Sigh. I wasn't formulating an argument, I was providing direct, authentic evidence to supprot my arguments throghout this thread. The arguement was that historically the church is a literal place and involes two kinds of punishment; spiritual (which catholics agree) and physical which is denied by catholics but expllicity stated in authentic catholci teaching which I provided. I don't at any time recall you being moderator of this debate.[/quote] But even the poorly structured Baltimore Catechism refers to hell (and heaven) as "states." So you have not proved that Western Christians believe that hell is a place. Edited December 20, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732428' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:44 AM']Nevertheless, Islamic theology is irrelevant in this discussion. What Muslims believe about heaven and hell and predestination is not a part of this particular thread. Of course you are free to create a thread on that topic if you want.[/quote] Obviously. I said that in the very post you quoted. I am not sure why you felt the need to put (sic) in your quote. Everyone who creats posts here would understand that, given the way the quote function works, those are my misspellings and not yours [quote]God is not capricious. Man's destiny is in his own hands.[/quote] You have said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732434' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:51 PM']You have said so.[/quote] The patristic tradition says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732432' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:49 AM']Almost anything written by Fr. Meyendorff or Fr. Georges Florovsky would be good. A good primary source text to read would be the second volume of the [i]Philokalia[/i], which contains many of the writings of St. Maximos the Confessor.[/quote] thank you, I will look them up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732433' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:50 AM']But even the poorly structured Baltimore Catechism refers to hell (and heaven) as "states." So you have not proved that Western Christians believe that hell is a place.[/quote] Yeah that's right, when the evidnece is against you attack the source. You should know that's no way to formulate an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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