God And Hell And Free Choice

[bonkers]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1728034' date='Dec 15 2008, 12:08 AM']If one doesn't love God then why would one want to be in heaven with the Trinity?[/quote]

For the eternal bliss I imagine.

[quote]Hell is reserved for those who do not accept God's love for them and in turn do not love God.[/quote]

That's no reason to punish them for all eternity.

[Formosus]

The eternal bliss is a result of loving God. If one doesn't love God then why would they have eternal bliss? If one doesn't wish to be with God then why would they want the eternal bliss that is a result of it? The bliss is the deifying graces one receives because of their love for God and God's love for them. If one doesn't accept God's love and deifying graces then one will end up far away from God and either look on with shame at their behavior or in prideful scorn and contempt at those who live with God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728035' date='Dec 14 2008, 10:12 PM']That's no reason to punish them for all eternity.[/quote]
A man who goes to hell punishes himself by his turning away from the love of God, which he cannot escape. Thus, God does not punish such a man; instead, He continues to love him, for God loves all that He has created.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1728037' date='Dec 15 2008, 12:17 AM']The eternal bliss is a result of loving God. If one doesn't love God then why would they have eternal bliss? If one doesn't wish to be with God then why would they want the eternal bliss that is a result of it? The bliss is the deifying graces one receives because of their love for God and God's love for them. If one doesn't accept God's love and deifying graces then one will end up far away from God and either look on with shame at their behavior or in prideful scorn and contempt at those who live with God.[/quote]

Most people perceive heaven to be a place of paraside full of floating clouds and harps and reunions with loved ones. That we get to love god for all eternity does not factor into a common persons interpretation of heaven. Just because people might not want god's etenrnal love does not mean they want to be physically punished for it. If I had a choice between loving god or spending eternity in hell, I would surely choose god but then it wouldn't really be a free choice would it? The problem is not being close to god forever, it's the physicsal and unexpected physical pains (i.e. punishment) that accompany one's supposedly free decision, which isn't really free at all.

[Formosus]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728078' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:16 AM']Most people perceive heaven to be a place of paraside full of floating clouds and harps and reunions with loved ones. That we get to love god for all eternity does not factor into a common persons interpretation of heaven. Just because people might not want god's etenrnal love does not mean they want to be physically punished for it. If I had a choice between loving god or spending eternity in hell, I would surely choose god but then it wouldn't really be a free choice would it? The problem is not being close to god forever, it's the physicsal and unexpected physical pains (i.e. punishment) that accompany one's supposedly free decision, which isn't really free at all.[/quote]

The misconceptions of popular piety is not what heaven is and is not really all that relevant to this discussion. There is no "physical" punishment in hell. Surely one in hell would desire physical punishment to help releive the pain of the spiritual torment felt by their rejection of God and their separation from the Most Holy Trinity. You say, if I had a choice, but you do have a choice now. You can choose to love God and be with Him for all eternity, or you can choose to reject God and live in shame of your rejection of Him who created you. The only pain people feel in hell is self inflicted. Just because there are consequences to action doesn't make it not a free choice. All choices have some sort of consequence. I can choose to go have an ice cream right now and enjoy the temporal bliss of ice cream, or I can choose to not have an ice cream and suffer the lack of ice cream. All choices have a consequence.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1728045' date='Dec 15 2008, 12:34 AM']A man who goes to hell punishes himself by his turning away from the love of God, which he cannot escape. Thus, God does not punish such a man; instead, He continues to love him, for God loves all that He has created.[/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/hella1a.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/hella1a.htm[/url]

[b]Those are punished in hell [/b]who die in mortal sin; they are deprived of the vision of God and suffer dreadful torments, especially that of fire, for all eternity.

(a) The souls in hell are beyond all help. They do not belong to the Mystical Body of Christ or to the Communion of Saints. They are not included among our neighbors and are not the objects of charity. They are doomed to the company of the devils for all eternity.

(b) The souls in hell do not have supernatural faith. They believe, however, in the truths revealed by Almighty God, not with divine faith, but because they cannot escape the evidence of God's authority.

© The privation of the beatific vision is called the pain of loss; the torment inflicted by created means on the soul, and on the body after its resurrection, is called the pain of sense.

(d) [b]It is not against God's mercy to punish souls in hell for eternity[/b]. [b]God's justice demands that He thus punish those who, sinning gravely and refusing to repent[/b], deliberately turn themselves from God, their last end.

(e) [b]The punishment of hell is eternal[/b]; Our Lord referred to it as "everlasting fire."

PUNISHMENT, PUNISHMENT, PUNISHMENT! If it is assume man is reponsible for his own punishment then we should also be able to choose the means by which that punishment is dealt. I personally would choose eternity on a tropical island..

[Formosus]

The punishments of hell given by God is God's love for those people and their rejection of God's love.

That said, the Baltimore Catechism is not an infallible document and its way of wording things will reflect a certain attitude found in neo-thomism of the late 1800s.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728085' date='Dec 14 2008, 11:28 PM'][url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/hella1a.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/hella1a.htm[/url]

[b]Those are punished in hell [/b]who die in mortal sin; they are deprived of the vision of God and suffer dreadful torments, especially that of fire, for all eternity.[/quote]
Eastern Christians see things a bit differently than how EWTN puts it. For Eastern Christians both the saved and the damned participate in the vision of God, because God's energy is everywhere and in everything. It is our disposition that determines our fate. If a man has cooperated with God's energy throughout his life, he will receive ever-well-being (i.e., heaven), but if he has rejected God's love and fought against the divine energy that keeps him in being from moment to moment, he will experience ever-ill-being (i.e., hell).

[bonkers]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1728080' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:23 AM']The misconceptions of popular piety is not what heaven is and is not really all that relevant to this discussion. There is no "physical" punishment in hell.[/quote]

Modern, liberal interpretation of hell is not consistent with history and tradition. Augustine and previous catechisms taught hell as a distinct place for the souls of the damned who were consumed by a literal fire.

[quote]Surely one in hell would desire physical punishment to help releive the pain of the spiritual torment felt by their rejection of God and their separation from the Most Holy Trinity.[/quote]

Ask Lazarus.

[quote]You say, if I had a choice, but you do have a choice now. You can choose to love God and be with Him for all eternity, or you can choose to reject God and live in shame of your rejection of Him who created you. The only pain people feel in hell is self inflicted. Just because there are consequences to action doesn't make it not a free choice. All choices have some sort of consequence. I can choose to go have an ice cream right now and enjoy the temporal bliss of ice cream, or I can choose to not have an ice cream and suffer the lack of ice cream. All choices have a consequence.[/quote]

I can make the choice to embrace god but it would actually feel like the choice to embrace a delusion, so I cannot rationally and wilfully accept something as true I dont believe in, therefore I cannot rationally and in good conscience choose to accept him. I'm not arguing consequences to actions doesn't make something not a free choice, I'm saying for that choice to be free that person needs to have knowledge of the consquences of his choices. Using the ice cream analogy, if I have a choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, say I choose the chocolate ice cream, which unknowingly to me contains cyanide which kills me, I have not given consent to die, nor should I be held accountable for it.

[Guest]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1728093' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:41 AM']Eastern Christians see things a bit differently than how EWTN puts it. For Eastern Christians both the saved and the damned participate in the vision of God, because God's energy is everywhere and in everything. It is our disposition that determines our fate. If a man has cooperated with God's energy throughout his life, he will receive ever-well-being (i.e., heaven), but if he has rejected God's love and fought against the divine energy that keeps him in being from moment to moment, he will experience ever-ill-being (i.e., hell).[/quote]

+ 1

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728159' date='Dec 15 2008, 04:54 AM']Using the ice cream analogy, if I have a choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, say I choose the chocolate ice cream, which unknowingly to me contains cyanide which kills me, I have not given consent to die, nor should I be held accountable for it.[/quote]


Ahh but you have many telling you right now the chocolate ice cream contains cyanide in it. Its up to you if you choose to eat it.
I find in your post as if you think God is going to send almost everyone to hell. That is not the case God is a God of Goodness and Love. He desires that all be saved. God is not going to send someone to hell who doesnt know the truth and hasnt had a chanch to hear the truth. On the otherhand those who hear the truth and willfuly reject it, well they are creating their own future not God yet they are still going to take part in and watch it play out for eternity. (forever)

* no one ever really dies * in the sence you will never be able to escape whatever destiny you create for yourself.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Guest

[bonkers]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1728262' date='Dec 15 2008, 12:57 PM']Ahh but you have many telling you right now the chocolate ice cream contains cyanide in it. Its up to you if you choose to eat it.[/quote]

OK, lets add four more flavoured ice creams to the equation. Cherry, lime, banana and vodka (couldn't think of anything else). Each ice cream has many telling me the other ice creams all contain cyanide, but there's doesn't. Who to believe? Where has my free choice gone? There is no objective criteria or testing method to determine which apples contain cyanide and which (if any) don't. So I choose blindly, which is not the same as free choice. I choose the one that is supported by reason and evidence, not superstition.

[quote]I find in your post as if you think God is going to send almost everyone to hell. That is not the case God is a God of Goodness and Love. He desires that all be saved. God is not going to send someone to hell who doesnt know the truth and hasnt had a chanch to hear the truth. On the otherhand those who hear the truth and willfuly reject it, well they are creating their own future not God yet they are still going to take part in and watch it play out for eternity. (forever)

* no one ever really dies * in the sence you will never be able to escape whatever destiny you create for yourself.[/quote]

I don't think god is sending almost all to hell. But acording to your theology, there is no salvation outside the church. A recent teaching that non-Catholics can be saved is inconsistent with traditional teaching. It's plainly clear in the catechism, one who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe in it goes to hell, and that those instances in which a non-Catholic may be saved are exceptions, not the norm.

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728327' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:02 PM']OK, lets add four more flavoured ice creams to the equation. Cherry, lime, banana and vodka (couldn't think of anything else). Each ice cream has many telling me the other ice creams all contain cyanide, but there's doesn't. Who to believe? Where has my free choice gone? There is no objective criteria or testing method to determine which apples contain cyanide and which (if any) don't. So I choose blindly, which is not the same as free choice. I choose the one that is supported by reason and evidence, not superstition.[/quote]


Well I think in these very strange times ( getting stranger everyday) you are going to have more and more choices everday. I think in the future (probally my lifetime) there is going to be supernatural stuff going on. The bible says that many are going to be coming in his name. They will perform signs and miracles and even fool the ellect. So If I were you I would try to find out which icecream is good right now. This is possible through a personal relationship with God through faith. It is very real yet if you have no faith then its not real at all. You have to take the steps forward to be able to see the progress. Again God is a God of love and he will pour his love out on you. But you have to choose to recieve it.

If I tell you that my grandma loves me but you do not know her or even know if she exist how can you belive me ? Yet I know my grandma loves me and I know this because she has shown me she loves me for the last 27 years. This comes through my relationship with her and her proving her love for me. God is the same way. Through a personal realtionship through Jesus Christ we come to find out how much God loves us.


[quote name='bonkers' post='1728327' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:02 PM']I don't think god is sending almost all to hell. But acording to your theology, there is no salvation outside the church. A recent teaching that non-Catholics can be saved is inconsistent with traditional teaching. It's plainly clear in the catechism, one who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe in it goes to hell, and that those instances in which a non-Catholic may be saved are exceptions, not the norm.[/quote]

God loves those who love him. I think its that simple.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1728327' date='Dec 15 2008, 02:02 PM']OK, lets add four more flavoured ice creams to the equation. Cherry, lime, banana and vodka (couldn't think of anything else). Each ice cream has many telling me the other ice creams all contain cyanide, but there's doesn't. Who to believe? Where has my free choice gone? There is no objective criteria or testing method to determine which apples contain cyanide and which (if any) don't. So I choose blindly, which is not the same as free choice. I choose the one that is supported by reason and evidence, not superstition.

I don't think god is sending almost all to hell. But acording to your theology, there is no salvation outside the church. A recent teaching that non-Catholics can be saved is inconsistent with traditional teaching. It's plainly clear in the catechism, one who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe in it goes to hell, and that those instances in which a non-Catholic may be saved are exceptions, not the norm.[/quote]

Let me see if I can make some sense of all this for you. (and get my own thoughts on the matter organized at the same time).

I think the first thing that needs to be reiterated is that God isnt cold in his judgement. Everyone else has been trying to say this, but you dont seem to want to agree. God does not hold things against people who are ignorant of truth. God judges intention, he's the only one who can. The important thing though is that God has not left us dumb. We have reason, and with reason we can figure out the majority of right and wrong actions. Murder, for instance, can figured out as 'wrong' no matter who you are. Desert-island-dude can reason out that murder is wrong, and then go "but who cares", and murder desert-island-dude #2...

Good and Bad are not just adjectives assigned to actions by God. Something isnt 'wrong' because it sends you to hell. 'Wrong' consequences are when the purpose or nature of a created thing has been damaged, obstructed, or destroyed. The wronginess is something pertaining to this reality. God, and our life after death, exists outside of this reality. Our destination is tied directly to the respect we pay to God's will in this reality. A huge part of God's will is seen in all created things, and the nature and purpose assigned to those things by their creation. The rest of God's will is found out through revelation.

In this post im mostly speaking of the person who hasnt heard of Christianity, or doesnt get it completely

I would love for someone to take what I just said and make it make more sense. Eventually I will be able to, but im not there yet...

Edited December 15, 2008 by Sirklawd

[Formosus]

-Bonkers

I am sorry if you find my view "modern and liberal" but it is the view of the ancient fathers of the East. While St. Augustine is an important theologian, he only represents one aspect of one tradition in the Catholic Faith. The Byzantine christians do not use, nor have ever used augustinian theological terms or motiffs.