God And Hell And Free Choice

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726239' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:16 PM']Something I have found fascinating that is hinted at in various writings in Church history - Scott Hahn seems to be a fan of the idea - is the notion that Hell and Heaven are two experiences of the same state; that of being either drawn or cast into the eternal and infinite love of God. Many scriptures refer to God in terms of consuming fire. The highest angels, closest to God, are the seraphim ("burning ones"). The thought then is that when we die, we all are faced with the glory of Almighty God; those who die in a state of aversion to that glory (i.e. mortal sin) find it terrible and want to escape, but cannot. Those who die in a state of grace but with attachments to sin find it both glorious and terrible at the same time, but only for a "time" in that their attachments are burned away by the purgation of the divine vision they longingly, if painfully, embrace. Those that die perfectly in a state of grace dive ever deeper into the "fires" of God's love.

In other words:

Hell is the experience of Divine Charity as unfathomably terrible; forever having one's back turned to it but never being able to escape.

Purgatory is the same experience as terrible, but alluring; facing it head on with joy and hope in the midst of the suffering it brings.

Heaven is the same experience as everlasting bliss and perfection.

I like this idea, as it seems to make sense that nobody - even those that choose Hell - would be able to "outrun" God's presence or "escape" God's love.[/quote]


that is awesome! wow. it lines up perfectly with everything we know from scriptures and revelation about sin and God...thankusomuch.

[mortify]

Peace Sirklawd,

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1725331' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:19 AM']I've been talking about the faith with a friend of mind, and one of the main sticking points for him is how can a loving God have a Hell.[/quote]

I think the answer lies in free will.

This life is a brief interval for testing and growing. God has given us the free will to choose Him or reject Him.

The afterlife is merely a continuation of this life but in an infinitely more profound way. So if I die in union with God, that union continues to the hereafter but whereas on earth I could only have Faith, in Heaven I will *know* God. The same is true for those who reject God and lived a life separated from Him, when they die this separation continues. The eternal separation from God is what we call Hell.

Why is Hell so bad if so many are already living a life separated from Him? The answer is we are not yet aware of how Good God is, the fact is His Goodness remains incomprehensible. We don't know what it means to say God is Love, the Love that He is is infinite and perfect, beyond anything human's can fathom. When we die, our spiritual intellect is freed from the bodily intellect, and things become crystal clear to us. We will know that God is Infinite Love, and this will be an unimaginable joy for those who died in a state of grace. For those who die in eternal separation, this will be their greatest torment.

The torment of eternal separation is horrific, and we know that no one goes there who does not trully deserve it. Where as heaven is a gift that can't be earned, Hell *must* be earned. God works in many ways, some visible, and many invisible, and in fact often in ways that particular souls are unconscious of. Every soul receives the sufficient grace to make it to heaven, of that we can be assured of, but for this grace to be effective, it requires the cooperation of the soul.

Sadly, we know some souls will be obstinate even unto the point of death. God does not will them into Hell, they choose it themselves.

[mortify]

Peace Paddington,

[quote name='Paddington' post='1725370' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:15 PM']God not forcing His will on people explains people not getting in to Heaven, but it takes a lot more to explain people going to Hell. Why not annihilation?[/quote]

First it's a revealed truth that Hell exists and that the "second death," or spiritual death, is not annihilation but eternal separation from God and the pains of sense for particular sins. The greatest torment being the former.

The reason why annihilation doesn't occur is because the soul of man is spirit. A soul is simply the life principle of an organism but man's soul is a spirit and spirit is something immaterial, something God created to exist beyond the destruction of the body. Where as matter can perish, the spirit can not, and so it will exist in eternity either in union or in separation with God.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725375' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:20 PM']Well, according to the bible and thousands of years of tradition, hell is a place of fire and brimstone. Unless god made a mistake? Or he deliberately tries to deceive us by promoting a doctrine which is impossible to rationalise with his omnibenevolent nature and free will?[/quote]
I think you're criticizing your own false image of what we believe.

It's because of the infinite Goodness and Beauty of God that separation from Him in the afterlife will be such a torment.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725352' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:00 PM']No one chooses to go to hell. It's actually contrary to human nature to want to suffer for all eternity, unless you suffer a perverse form of masochism. It's not a conscious decision, no one decides "I want to go to hell", therefore it's not choice. If people aren't fully aware of the consequences of their actions, it's not free will. Does it occur to you no one actually believes they are going to hell?[/quote]

One chooses hell when one sins.

The essence of sin is turning away from God and turning towards one self. This is an act of willful separation from God, and unless a person seeks reconciliation this separation will continue into the afterlife. The separation from God is what we call Hell.

If a person performs a sinful act but they are sincerely ignorant of it being an offense to God, then that person is [i]not[/i] in a state of sin. God works in the souls of men in ways that we may not even be aware of, so that even Pagans living on deserted Islands are capable of knowing the will of God, and it can be done so through our conscience. If we go against what our conscience tells us is right, our conscience will condemn us in the end, and so one need not be a knowledgeable Christian to be judged.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1727103' date='Dec 13 2008, 03:45 PM']I think you're criticizing your own false image of what we believe.

It's because of the infinite Goodness and Beauty of God that separation from Him in the afterlife will be such a torment.[/quote]

Actually, I think most people are concerned about the lake of sulphur than separation from god's love and beauty. I don't believe in his infinite goodness.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1727108' date='Dec 13 2008, 03:52 PM']One chooses hell when one sins.

The essence of sin is turning away from God and turning towards one self. This is an act of willful separation from God, and unless a person seeks reconciliation this separation will continue into the afterlife. The separation from God is what we call Hell.

If a person performs a sinful act but they are sincerely ignorant of it being an offense to God, then that person is [i]not[/i] in a state of sin. God works in the souls of men in ways that we may not even be aware of, so that even Pagans living on deserted Islands are capable of knowing the will of God, and it can be done so through our conscience. If we go against what our conscience tells us is right, our conscience will condemn us in the end, and so one need not be a knowledgeable Christian to be judged.[/quote]

No one chooses infinite punishment for finite actions. This is unjust. Why is it such a pain to admit hell is not just "separation from god", it's a place of punishment? It even says in the bible god will [i]cast[/i] his enemies into hell and [i]punish[/i] them for all eternity. Cast and punish, directly implicating god in the destiny of our souls. The pagan living on a deserted island cannot know the consequences of choosing evil, he cannot know his single deed will merit eternal punishment, therefore the choice between heaven and hell is not free. He is not consciously deciding, "I will disobey god and reap the consequences of this" because he does not know who god is, and he does not know his actions will have consequences. Imagine his surprise when he dies and finds himself in a burning lake.

Hell is one of those doctrines you can decorate with colourful language all you want, but it makes no sense to the unbeliever and cannot be reconciled with an all loving, all forgiving, all merciful god.

Edited December 14, 2008 by bonkers

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1727589' date='Dec 14 2008, 08:52 AM']No one chooses infinite punishment for finite actions. This is unjust. Why is it such a pain to admit hell is not just "separation from god", it's a place of punishment? It even says in the bible god will [i]cast[/i] his enemies into hell and [i]punish[/i] them for all eternity. Cast and punish, directly implicating god in the destiny of our souls. The pagan living on a deserted island cannot know the consequences of choosing evil, he cannot know his single deed will merit eternal punishment, therefore the choice between heaven and hell is not free. He is not consciously deciding, "I will disobey god and reap the consequences of this" because he does not know who god is, and he does not know his actions will have consequences. Imagine his surprise when he dies and finds himself in a burning lake.

Hell is one of those doctrines you can decorate with colourful language all you want, but it makes no sense to the unbeliever and cannot be reconciled with an all loving, all forgiving, all merciful god.[/quote]

The people who go to Hell are the people who live in sort of Hell already; that is, people who, through no cohersive force or ignorance, engage themselves totally in a serious sin. Those who understand such sins and know them for what they are, yet freely and fully engage themselves in such acts are not happy people. Those that seem so do not likely have the full knowledge or consent towards the grave error necessary for that error to be a mortal sin.

When we say that Hell is a choice, we refer to the freedom and awareness necessary to commit a mortal sin - in other words, as mortal sin is a choice, so too is Hell. Mortal sin and Hell have virtually interchangable definitions. Why is Hell death and suffering? Because Hell is the state of being "oriented" away from God on the spiritual level. Since God is the source of life, goodness, beauty, and pleasure, to be "turned away from" him is to "separate" one's self from these divine qualities. Hell is therefore the total absence (or perhaps more accurately stated, the total opposition) of goodness, pleasure, beauty, and life.

This is why we say Hell is a place of unimaginable suffering and torture; there is little possability of removing one's self from the qualities of God totally in this life. We sometimes seem to come close. But as long as we live, no matter how much we suffer, there is always the hope of improving our quality of life. In Hell, all hope is gone.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Ziggamafu

[Ziggamafu]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=85072&st=360&p=1692341&#entry1692341"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...p;#entry1692341[/url]

[bonkers]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727612' date='Dec 14 2008, 11:29 AM']The people who go to Hell are the people who live in sort of Hell already; that is, people who, through no cohersive force or ignorance, engage themselves totally in a serious sin. Those who understand such sins and know them for what they are, yet freely and fully engage themselves in such acts are not happy people. Those that seem so do not likely have the full knowledge or consent towards the grave error necessary for that error to be a mortal sin.[/quote]

In other words anyone who is not devout Catholic? For one to be in a state of mortal sin, to give consent to that sin and be fully aware of the consequences of that sin, they would need to be practicing Catholic. I do things you would consider mortal sins everyday, am I evil , or just ignorant? I don't believe i'm offending god because I don't believe in god. I don't give consent to the consequences of my choices, becuase I don't believe my private choices will merit any punishment, let alone eternal. I don't believe in hell or mortal sin. No one consciously decides they are offending god when they do the wrong thing. In relation to god, mortal sin and hell, it's not choice, it's pure ignorance.

[quote]When we say that Hell is a choice, we refer to the freedom and awareness necessary to commit a mortal sin - in other words, as mortal sin is a choice, so too is Hell. Mortal sin and Hell have virtually interchangable definitions. Why is Hell death and suffering? Because Hell is the state of being "oriented" away from God on the spiritual level. Since God is the source of life, goodness, beauty, and pleasure, to be "turned away from" him is to "separate" one's self from these divine qualities. Hell is therefore the total absence (or perhaps more accurately stated, the total opposition) of goodness, pleasure, beauty, and life.[/quote]

There is no free will. For a choice to be free, one has to understand there is a choice, and what the implications of that will be. Most people don't. They happily plod along in life doing what they think is right and thinking they will go to heaven. You fail to address the punishment aspect of hell. I will refer to secret of Fatima;

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."

Great sea of fire under the earth, souls in human form, transparent burning embers, flames, great clouds of smoke, sparks in a huge fire, shrieks and groans of pain and despair, seems to denote hell as a place of physical punishment, not just psychological despair of being separated from god. How do you explain and justify this? I suppose you will say it's just a metaphor..

[Ziggamafu]

The ontology of God is Truth and Charity itself. Therefore, although we may be sincerely wrong, the sincerity does count for something. Some - perhaps all - may be saved through Jesus (and only Jesus) even if they don't believe in Jesus as a matter of conscience or ignorance. We are accountable for that Truth and / or Charity of which we have been sincerely convicted. Man judges on the outside appearances (we can look at objective actions and discern the action to be wrong) but God judges on the heart (God looks at the subjective intentions). We cannot pull the wool over God's eyes.

God holds us accountable on an individual level, according to our capabilities and convictions. God is just. God is merciful. God is love.

"Non-Catholics" may be saved; but only if they were Catholics unknowingly. Again, mortal sin is a choice. Mortal sin is the deliberate rejection of God and thus the deliberate rejection of Truth and / or Charity. And as you implied, those who live their best according to Truth and Charity could not justly be held accountable for that of which they were ignorant.

Finally, we must hope for everyone's salvation; it is actually a sin to despair of someone's salvation.

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1727624' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:07 PM']In other words anyone who is not devout Catholic? For one to be in a state of mortal sin, to give consent to that sin and be fully aware of the consequences of that sin, they would need to be practicing Catholic. I do things you would consider mortal sins everyday, am I evil , or just ignorant? I don't believe i'm offending god because I don't believe in god. I don't give consent to the consequences of my choices, becuase I don't believe my private choices will merit any punishment, let alone eternal. I don't believe in hell or mortal sin. No one consciously decides they are offending god when they do the wrong thing. In relation to god, mortal sin and hell, it's not choice, it's pure ignorance.[/quote]

More then devout catholics will be saved. Its up to God though its not for us to wonder about. If you bonkers do things you know are mortal sins now then yes, you are going to be held accountable. I commit mortal sins and thats why I go to confession. I dont consdier myself evil and I wouldnt consider you evil. (yet i dont know you so you may be as i may be also) But just because you dont believe in God doesnt change the fact that he is there and these are his rules and his game. I would venture to say out of Gods grace you are here and being informed on all this stuff. More then anything God loves you and wants you to love him. He is faithfull to forgive sins and im a perfect example of this.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Guest

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1727579' date='Dec 14 2008, 08:29 AM']Actually, I think most people are concerned about the lake of sulphur than separation from god's love and beauty.[/quote]

With all due respect you *don't* know what the majority of people are concerned with.

Even St Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century said the greatest torment of hell is the separation from God.

[quote]I don't believe in his infinite goodness.[/quote]

I didn't know you could both reject the existence of God and comment on His qualities... pretty absurd, no?

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1727851' date='Dec 14 2008, 05:40 PM']With all due respect you *don't* know what the majority of people are concerned with.

Even St Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century said the greatest torment of hell is the separation from God.[/quote]

Aquinas also taught Limbo. Ask anyone what they most fear about hell? They will all say the lake of fire. Humans fear physical pain more than loss.

[quote]I didn't know you could both reject the existence of God and comment on His qualities... pretty absurd, no?[/quote]

Not at all. I don't have to believe in god to make comments regarding his fictional characteristics.

[Formosus]

If one doesn't love God then why would one want to be in heaven with the Trinity?

Hell is reserved for those who do not accept God's love for them and in turn do not love God.