Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732890' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:31 PM']The connection is a natural desiring x and x existing. There is no natural desire for something that does not exist.[/quote] Sure there is. Cortez desired the city of gold. Didn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732861' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:06 PM']I didn't know Sayyed had an argument for God's existance.[/quote] I read "I hear the same thing from Muslims." Then the line about Sayyed and thought that is what Sayyed also 'told' you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732895' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:33 PM']I read "I hear the same thing from Muslims." Then the line about Sayyed and thought that is what Sayyed also 'told' you.[/quote] No, he claims the truth of Islam is written on man's heart and they must simply be reminded of what they have forgotten, hence the Qur'an. I know of no more evidence for this claim than your claims about various truths written on men's hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1732893' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:33 PM']Sure there is. Cortez desired the city of gold. Didn't exist.[/quote] His desire was truly for gold, and gold does exist. But Gold is not a natural desire. No one naturally desires gold. Man naturally desires food and water. Edited December 21, 2008 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732896' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:35 PM']No, he claims the truth of Islam is written on man's heart and they must simply be reminded of what they have forgotten, hence the Qur'an. I know of no more evidence for this claim than your claims about various truths written on men's hearts[/quote] Ah so it was similar to Peter Kreeft's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732893' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:33 PM']Sure there is. Cortez desired the city of gold. Didn't exist.[/quote] The key term is "natural desire" and its definition within the perennial philosophy. Moreover, your example would be rejected because avarice is not a "natural desire"; instead, like all sins it is disordered, i.e., it is unnatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732897' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:35 PM']His desire was truly for gold, and gold does exist.[/quote] No, his desire was for a city made of gold. But even beyond that, I desire the fountain of youth, people have desired this fountain, it does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732902' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:38 PM']The key term is "natural desire" and its definition within the perennial philosophy. Moreover, your example would be rejected because avarice is not a "natural desire"; instead, like all sins it is disordered, i.e., it is unnatural.[/quote] what exactly constitutes a "natural desire"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732900' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:37 PM']Ah so it was similar to Peter Kreeft's.[/quote] It had nothing to do with any claim about desire or an argument for God's existance. The Qur'an makes repeated reference to it's function in "reminding man what he has forgotten". That is simply a general interpretation of what that verse means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1732903' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:39 PM']No, his desire was for a city made of gold. But even beyond that, I desire the fountain of youth, people have desired this fountain, it does not exist.[/quote] Seriously, lets be that. What about the city did he desire? The gold part. That exists. Anyway desire of gold is not natural. One may desire naturally to be immortal, in heaven or hell we will be. Edited December 21, 2008 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732905' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:40 PM']what exactly constitutes a "natural desire"?[/quote] Like many of your questions in this thread and others, your present question lacks specificity. Are you asking what constitutes a "natural desire" within the philosophia perennis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732906' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:41 PM']It had nothing to do with any claim about desire or an argument for God's existance. The Qur'an makes repeated reference to it's function in "reminding man what he has forgotten". That is simply a general interpretation of what that verse means.[/quote] It did have to do with God written truth in mans heart. Therefor similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732910' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:43 PM']Like many of your questions in this thread and others, your present question lacks specificity. Are you asking what constitutes a "natural desire" within the philosophia perennis?[/quote] yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1732915' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:45 PM']yes.[/quote] A natural desire is that which brings a being to its true and proper end ([i]telos[/i]). The most general answer would be the desire for the true good, which alone can fulfill the being in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732916' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:47 PM']A natural desire is that which brings a being to its true and proper end ([i]telos[/i]). The most general answer would be the desire for the true good, which alone can fulfill the being in question.[/quote] Alright. While that is interesting I don't think that help's KoC's argument for the existance of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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