Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1732813' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:50 PM']Sure, but you did not just arbitrarilydecide Eastern Catholicism was correct as opposed to Islam or Judaism etc. I mean I assume you have some rational grounds for rejecting Islam (or any non-Christian religion). But if Islam turnes out to be true you did not "choose" to pick the wrong religion, rather you made an error of judgement. If I am doing a proof and make a mistake at some level of it, let's say I invalidly make a Existential Instantiation at one point, my Professor would not say, "You choose to make an invalid proof here" but rather "you made a istake at line ___"[/quote] I am not a Pelagian heretic. I did not, by the use of my intellect or any other means, give myself faith. Christian faith is a gift of divine energy whereby God unites Himself to man, and man discovers his true end in the divinity that is beyond divinity. Edited December 21, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='bonkers' post='1732818' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:55 PM']That one can be an Allah fearing Muslim and yet invisibly Catholic at the same time is absurd.[/quote] Sadly, Mohammad rejected the Holy Trinity, and so the "faith" of Islam is false, and no man can be saved by following the tenets of the Muslim religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='bonkers' post='1732818' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:55 PM']You reckon it would apply to her? Typically the notion of salvation outside the church refers to some invisible obstacle from the person knowing it. People stuck on desert islands, jungles, that sorta thing, not little girls been witnessed to on the bus, otherwise it would be better if she was ignorant. The church fathers always taught schismatics and heretics would not enter heaven. That one can be an Allah fearing Muslim and yet invisibly Catholic at the same time is absurd.[/quote] A chance encounter with "an old lady on a bus" telling her about Catholicism being necessary for salvation isn't going to override years Islamic teaching. I hope you realize the issue is more complex... If God gave her the grace to embrace the fullness of Truth and she rejected it even at death, then yes, she will be in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1732813' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:50 PM']Sure, but you did not just arbitrarilydecide Eastern Catholicism was correct as opposed to Islam or Judaism etc. I mean I assume you have some rational grounds for rejecting Islam (or any non-Christian religion). But if Islam turnes out to be true you did not "choose" to pick the wrong religion, rather you made an error of judgement. If I am doing a proof and make a mistake at some level of it, let's say I invalidly make a Existential Instantiation at one point, my Professor would not say, "You choose to make an invalid proof here" but rather "you made a istake at line ___"[/quote] My Professor says something similar but he still counts off for 'mistakes', he doesn't say it wasn't my fault and gives me an A+. After all he taught me the truth but I did not give the right answer its not his fault its not my fellow students fault it would be mine, and mine alone. The same is true with God, God writes His truth in every mans heart and has established a Church to teach His truth. Man must listen to that truth God has written within him and listen to the Bride of Christ. Man must at least obey to the truth they receive. If those outside the Church are saved it is because they listened to that truth and the absence of their false religion not of their false religion they would be saved. Edited December 21, 2008 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732817' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:54 PM']Christianity is not a form of dualism. In other words, there is no eternal duality of good and evil within Christian theology. Consequently, evil is simply the relative absence of the good in the will of the creature, and so it has no essential being.[/quote] Some what like darkness is the absence of Light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBeyondGod Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732796' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:30 PM']I disagree. Non-existence is worse than hell. In fact, according to the Greek Fathers hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from non-being (cf. St. John Chrysostom, Ninth Homily on First Corinthians).[/quote] Jesus apparently doesn't agree with you or the church fathers. And He answered and said, “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” (Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21) So, non-being would have been better than the consequences of betraying Jesus. Unless you are going to say it would have been better for Judas' mother to get pregnant than miscarry Judas. I doubt that is what is implied in these verses though. Ending on a personal note... I'd rather not exist then exist in state of torment. Edited December 21, 2008 by GodBeyondGod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732826' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:12 PM']Jesus apparently doesn't agree with you or the church fathers. And He answered and said, “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” (Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21)[/quote] An idiomatic comment is hardly a proof against the doctrine of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732826' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:12 PM']Ending on a personal note... I'd rather not exist then exist in state of torment.[/quote] If you experience torment in the afterlife it will be because you chose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732824' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:03 PM']The same is true with God, God writes His truth in every mans heart and has established a Church to teach His truth. Man must listen to that truth God has written within him and listen to the Bride of Christ. Man must at least obey to the truth they receive. If those outside the Church are saved it is because they listened to that truth and the absence of their false religion not of their false religion they would be saved.[/quote] But you see, truth is a subjective thing. You all pretend like truth is a spiritual force and it leads only in one direction. A muslim would say the same thing abotu his religion, he would urge you to listen to the truth to becmoe a Muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='bonkers' post='1732831' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:19 PM']But you see, truth is a subjective thing. You all pretend like truth is a spiritual force and it leads only in one direction. A muslim would say the same thing abotu his religion, he would urge you to listen to the truth to becmoe a Muslim.[/quote] Truth is objective, while the apprehension of truth is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1732823' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:03 PM']A chance encounter with "an old lady on a bus" telling her about Catholicism being necessary for salvation isn't going to override years Islamic teaching. I hope you realize the issue is more complex... If God gave her the grace to embrace the fullness of Truth and she rejected it even at death, then yes, she will be in hell.[/quote] It's not really complex at all. Read up on the church fathers of salvation, they are unanimously agree there is no salvation outside the church. There may be vague hope to the pagan stuck on the island, but no salvation for jew, or any schismatic or heretic or any kind. One must be subject to the roman pontiff. It's all there in history. If the ecf's knew the church was teaching one can be both Muslim and Catholic they would throw up. It's a modern teaching of a church trying to keep pace with change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732824' date='Dec 20 2008, 10:03 PM']My Professor says something similar but he still counts off for 'mistakes', he doesn't say it wasn't my fault and gives me an A+. After all he taught me the truth but I did not give the right answer its not his fault its not my fellow students fault it would be mine, and mine alone.[/quote] But of course that is not a proper comparison. My professor taught me the rules of quantification logic and I have no one to blame but myself for not properly applying those rules. Of course the point was not about the proper punishment for the incident but the nature of the incident itself. I did not choose to reject quantification logic, I had an improper understanding of it. [quote]The same is true with God, God writes His truth in every mans heart and has established a Church to teach His truth. Man must listen to that truth God has written within him and listen to the Bride of Christ. Man must at least obey to the truth they receive. If those outside the Church are saved it is because they listened to that truth and the absence of their false religion not of their false religion they would be saved.[/quote] In what sense is the truth written on mans heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732832' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:21 PM']Truth is objective, while the apprehension of truth is subjective.[/quote] Therefoer the apprension of truth can lead anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='bonkers' post='1732831' date='Dec 20 2008, 10:19 PM']But you see, truth is a subjective thing. You all pretend like truth is a spiritual force and it leads only in one direction. A muslim would say the same thing abotu his religion, he would urge you to listen to the truth to becmoe a Muslim.[/quote] Yet you have little place to speak of moral truth if there be no God truth is subjective so also would be right and wrong. A Muslim has more truth than a atheist, because he at least has listened to the part of truth written on his soul that one God exist. Atheism makes it impossible for absolute moral truth to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732820' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:56 PM']I am not a Pelagian heretic. I did not, by the use of my intellect or any other means, give myself faith. Christian faith is a gift of divine energy whereby God unites Himself to man, and man discovers his true end in the divinity that is beyond divinity.[/quote] What was your role in accecpting this divine energy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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