God And Hell And Free Choice

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732764' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:25 PM']The "it's not my fault' is a modern believe, its always someone elses or something esles but not 'mine'. I willfully and knowingly reject the Allah of Islam. It is no mistake.[/quote]

If you know Islam is true and Allah sent Muhammad as his messenger to bring the Qur'an to believers and reject it prefering hell then that is your free choice.

If you believe Islam is a false religion but it was actually true then that is a mistake
and you did not willfully and knowingly reject Allah.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']Ok, if everyone is on board for these two:
1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.[/quote]I disagree. Non-existence is worse than hell. In fact, according to the Greek Fathers hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from non-being (cf. St. John Chrysostom, Ninth Homily on First Corinthians).

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.[/quote]I agree.

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']Let's continue. How do people get to hell?

a. Every human is at risk of hell depending on their actions and/or beliefs.[/quote]I agree.

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']b. Every human by default is destined for hell or possibly Limbo in regard to infants (Original Sin doctrine).[/quote]I disagree. Eastern Christians have never accepted the Augustinian view of mankind as a "mass of damnation" after the ancestral sin.

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:33 PM']c. Every human by default is destined for heaven and have to do something to merit hell.[/quote]I basically agree with this comment, but would add that there will be degrees of glory in heaven that correspond to the gifts of grace received, and the level of ascetic practice lived, by each person.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732740' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:46 PM']© is incorrect from a Christian point of view.[/quote]
It is the Augustinian point of view. That said, not all Christians accept the teaching of St. Augustine.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732797' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:31 PM']It is the Augustinian point of view. That said, not all Christians accept the teaching of St. Augustine.[/quote]

Of course you are right, I did not think that out before posting.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732783' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:08 PM']If you believe Islam is a false religion but it was actually true then that is a mistake
and you did not willfully and knowingly reject Allah.[/quote]
As a matter of divine faith I accept the revelation of God in Christ as definitive. As a consequence, I hold that Mohammad is not a prophet, and Islam is a false religion, for there will be no new public revelation until the Parousia at the end of time.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732796' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:30 PM']I disagree. Non-existence is worse than hell. In fact, according to the Greek Fathers hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from non-being (cf. St. John Chrysostom, Ninth Homily on First Corinthians).[/quote]


How? What is so bad about non-being. It's not eternal torment.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732800' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:36 PM']As a matter of divine faith I accept the revelation of God in Christ as definitive. As a consequence, I hold that Mohammad is not a prophet, and Islam is a false religion, for there will be no new public revelation until the Parousia at the end of time.[/quote]


Does that faith have a rational foundation?

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732773' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:50 PM']Yeah, did you read mine?[/quote]

So what did you make of Pope Pius IX's statement?
[quote]So the majority will be going to heaven? yay![/quote]
No.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732783' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:08 PM']If you know Islam is true and Allah sent Muhammad as his messenger to bring the Qur'an to believers and reject it prefering hell then that is your free choice.

If you believe Islam is a false religion but it was actually true then that is a mistake
and you did not willfully and knowingly reject Allah.[/quote]

From a traditional Catholic perspective that would simply not be the case for Jesus Christ and a Atheist. One could if he should chooses never believe and still willfully reject Christ, and no one else could be blamed for the atheist's mistake but himself. He could not use the modern sense of the word that it wasn't his fault when in fact it was.

Edited December 21, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732802' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:37 PM']Does that faith have a rational foundation?[/quote]
Faith is by its nature meta-rational, i.e., it is beyond human reason. But that does not mean that faith is irrational; instead, it simply means that faith, as a gift of divine energy, exceeds the created intellect of man. One who participates in God through faith becomes God in God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732801' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:36 PM']How? What is so bad about non-being. It's not eternal torment.[/quote]
Evil is nothingness.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732805' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:42 PM']Faith is by its nature meta-rational, i.e., it is beyond human reason. But that does not mean that faith is irrational; instead, it simply means that faith, as a gift of divine energy, exceeds the created intellect of man. One who participates in God through faith becomes God in God.[/quote]


Sure, but you did not just arbitrarilydecide Eastern Catholicism was correct as opposed to Islam or Judaism etc. I mean I assume you have some rational grounds for rejecting Islam (or any non-Christian religion). But if Islam turnes out to be true you did not "choose" to pick the wrong religion, rather you made an error of judgement. If I am doing a proof and make a mistake at some level of it, let's say I invalidly make a Existential Instantiation at one point, my Professor would not say, "You choose to make an invalid proof here" but rather "you made a istake at line ___"

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1732809' date='Dec 20 2008, 09:45 PM']Evil is nothingness.[/quote]

How so?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732814' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:51 PM']How so?[/quote]
Christianity is not a form of dualism. In other words, there is no eternal duality of good and evil within Christian theology. Consequently, evil is simply the relative absence of the good in the will of the creature, and so it has no essential being.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732803' date='Dec 20 2008, 08:40 PM']So what did you make of Pope Pius IX's statement?[/quote]

You reckon it would apply to her? Typically the notion of salvation outside the church refers to some invisible obstacle from the person knowing it. People stuck on desert islands, jungles, that sorta thing, not little girls been witnessed to on the bus, otherwise it would be better if she was ignorant. The church fathers always taught schismatics and heretics would not enter heaven. That one can be an Allah fearing Muslim and yet invisibly Catholic at the same time is absurd.