God And Hell And Free Choice

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732582' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:38 PM']I explained it earlier in the thread. Consider this hypothetical scenario;

You live a good Catholic life, you live according to what you believe to be truth, and you have hope you are going to heaven. You die, and you find yourself in hell, suffering both physical and spiritual torments. You realise it is not Jesus who is truth, it is Allah. You were wrong, and now you are going to suffer incredible torment and torture forever and ever. A Muslim would explain you had a choice, you chose to reject Allah, and therefore you chose an eternity in hell. Would this, in your own opinion, be the judgement of a just, fair and loving god?[/quote]

If that is true yes that would be just. Because I have rejected the 'truth' of Allah of Islam.

Edited December 20, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[bonkers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732602' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:15 PM']If that is true yes that would be just. Because I have rejected the 'truth' of Allah of Islam.[/quote]

Through your own fault?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732614' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:25 PM']Through your own fault?[/quote]

I would have no one else to blame, I have chosen to reject Islam. The choice is mine. If I am wrong, then I would deserve hell for it. But I am not wrong so I do not worry.

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732582' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:38 PM']You live a good Catholic life, you live according to what you believe to be truth, and you have hope you are going to heaven. You die, and you find yourself in hell, suffering both physical and spiritual torments. You realise it is not Jesus who is truth, it is Allah. You were wrong, and now you are going to suffer incredible torment and torture forever and ever. A Muslim would explain you had a choice, you chose to reject Allah, and therefore you chose an eternity in hell. Would this, in your own opinion, be the judgement of a just, fair and loving god?[/quote]

No, it would not be the judgment of a just God... fortunately, I don't have an Islamic understanding of God.

The pains of hell are so terrible that a person has to *earn* hell through their guilt. People don't just walk in there unknowingly, even if they are not aware of a final judgment and the existence of hell, they *know* the life they lived, the actions they performed, were WRONG. When they die and are confronted with judgment, they will *know* they deserve hell.

Now lets flip your scenario around...

There is a Muslim girl living in Saudi Arabia. Her entire life she was raised Muslim, never heard the Gospel, the only thing she knows about Isa (Jesus) is the little she has heard from the Qur'an and Hadith. She's been taught that Christians are polytheists, that we believe God is a man, that we worship statues and saints, and that our Bible has been so badly corrupted that literally there is nothing in it that reflects the revelation of God. She however loves God and does whatever she can to grow closer to Him. The only way she knows to grow closer to Him are through the tenets of her religion. So she prays often, performs dhikr, feeds the poor, counsels the weak, does things that we as Catholics would regard as good and noble despite differences in religion. But, she doesn't believe in Jesus, has not been baptized, and dies a Muslimah... does this mean she ends up in hell?

This is what Pope Pius IX had to say:

[b][color="#0000FF"]"We all know that those who are invincibly ignorant of our religion and who nevertheless lead an honest and upright life, can, under the influence of divine light and divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who knows and sees the mind, the heart, the thoughts, and the dispositions of every man, cannot in His infinite bounty and clemency permit any one to suffer eternal punishment who is not guilty through his own fault" [/color][/b]
[b](QUANTO CONFICIAMUR, August 10, 1863).[/b]

So the answer is she can make it to heaven. God works in all hearts and calls all people to His Divine Life which is heaven. Those who are ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own can possess an implicit desire for Truth and God, and this can suffice for their salvation. What needs to be said is that such a Muslim girl would be saved despite her religion, not because of it, and she would have died a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, and therefore in the Catholic Church.

God is loving, just, and merciful, and no one will suffer eternal punishment who does not deserve it.

Edited December 20, 2008 by mortify

[bonkers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732615' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:27 PM']I would have no one else to blame, I have chosen to reject Islam. The choice is mine. If I am wrong, then I would deserve hell for it. But I am not wrong so I do not worry.[/quote]

You didn't choose to reject Islam. You made a mistake. You were ignorant of the truth. Even that you say you are not wrong, but that objectively speaking you might be, you are ignorant of your own ignorance. It's not your fault at all, you were just following your own convictions, using the reasoning faculties Allah gave you to live life according to what you truly and fully convinced to be true. When we speak about punishment, we speak about punishment for evil deeds, as a form of justice and correction. Are you admitting your decision to live your life according to what believe to be true, sincerely and honestly following your own convictions, that is a crime so terrible, so evil as to warrant an eternity in hell???? Please be honest in your answer.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732619' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:32 PM']There is a Muslim girl living in Saudi Arabia. Her entire life she was raised Muslim, heard the Gospel, the only thing she knows about Isa (Jesus) is the little she has heard from the Qur'an and Hadith and some old Catholic lady she met on a bus once who told her about Jesus was the Christ and salvation only being obtained through the Catholic Church. The little girl ran home terrified about this but then in class the next day she learned that Christians are polytheists, that we believe God is a man, that we worship statues and saints, and that our Bible has been so badly corrupted that literally there is nothing in it that reflects the revelation of God. The little girl, 9 years old, however loves Allah and does whatever she can to grow closer to Him. The only way she knows to grow closer to Him are through the tenets of her religion. So she prays often, performs dhikr, feeds the poor, counsels the weak, does things that we as Catholics would regard as good and noble despite differences in religion. But, she doesn't believe in Jesus, has not been baptized, and dies a Muslimah... she finds herself in hell burning and wailing and in suffering in intense flames?[/quote]

I've made some mods to your story. See if you can pick them up and let me know if you think a just, loving, merciful god would condemn this Allah loving little girl to hell.

[quote]God is loving, just, and merciful, and no one will suffer eternal punishment who does not deserve it.[/quote]

Which is everyone, except the god believing hedonists.

Edited December 20, 2008 by bonkers

[mortify]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732625' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:47 PM']I've made some mods to your story. See if you can pick them up and let me know if you think a just, loving, merciful god would condemn this Allah loving little girl to hell.[/quote]

Did you read my post? lol

[quote]Which is everyone, except the god believing hedonists.[/quote]
I believe such a group is a proportionate minority.

[GodBeyondGod]

Let's find some common ground here before I jump into this debate.

Can we all agree that:

1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.

(IE, No condition here on earth can compare to what is in hell or the state of hell.)

and

2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think most here would find your premises okay to accept Godbeyond.

for, me, just noting, i might quibble with them a bit.

i could see hell and heaven being a continuum of scale. some are in the bad zone, and stuck there forever, and some can move out. now, if you deinfed hell as those stuck, then sure, it's forever. some might not be forever even though in that same zone though.
i'd also quibble that we're not sure that all will be there forever, as other debaters around here have argued. it's only be a proposition, thelogically, than something that is real.

also, i think people live hell on earth. so in that sense, it's the worst condition. but if you're standard of hell is afterlife only is the worst condition, i'm not sure i'd draw distinction etiehr.

semantics reallyu though.
i agree in geenral and in princple with them, even me.
as i'm sure most do.

go ahead arguing without me.
just noting.

Edited December 20, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[GodBeyondGod]

Ok, if everyone is on board for these two:
1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.


2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.


Let's continue. How do people get to hell?

a. Every human is at risk of hell depending on their actions and/or beliefs.

b. Every human by default is destined for hell or possibly Limbo in regard to infants (Original Sin doctrine).

c. Every human by default is destined for heaven and have to do something to merit hell.

Let me know if I overlooked anything.

[Hassan]

[quote name='GodBeyondGod' post='1732734' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:33 PM']Ok, if everyone is on board for these two:
1. (If) hell exists it is the worse condition that can ever befall a human.


2. it is eternal with no chance of reprieve.


Let's continue. How do people get to hell?

a. Every human is at risk of hell depending on their actions and/or beliefs.

b. Every human by default is destined for hell or possibly Limbo in regard to infants (Original Sin doctrine).

c. Every human by default is destined for heaven and have to do something to merit hell.

Let me know if I overlooked anything.[/quote]


© is incorrect from a Christian point of view.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732622' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:38 PM']You didn't choose to reject Islam. You made a mistake. You were ignorant of the truth. Even that you say you are not wrong, but that objectively speaking you might be, you are ignorant of your own ignorance. It's not your fault at all, you were just following your own convictions, using the reasoning faculties Allah gave you to live life according to what you truly and fully convinced to be true. When we speak about punishment, we speak about punishment for evil deeds, as a form of justice and correction. Are you admitting your decision to live your life according to what believe to be true, sincerely and honestly following your own convictions, that is a crime so terrible, so evil as to warrant an eternity in hell???? Please be honest in your answer.[/quote]

The "it's not my fault' is a modern believe, its always someone elses or something esles but not 'mine'. I willfully and knowingly reject the Allah of Islam. It is no mistake.

[GodBeyondGod]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1732740' date='Dec 20 2008, 06:46 PM']© is incorrect from a Christian point of view.[/quote]


Yeah, I was trying to establish the possible view points so we could work on it from there. If c. is out of the equation then a. and b. can be the only possible Christian views.

[GodBeyondGod]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1732764' date='Dec 20 2008, 07:25 PM']The "it's not my fault' is a modern believe, its always someone elses or something esles but not 'mine'. I willfully and knowingly reject the Allah of Islam. It is no mistake.[/quote]


I can see that. You decided Allah did not exist and you accept responsibility for that decision...

So, if Allah does exist and he punished you it would be because you decided he didn't exist and not of anything immoral you did... I think that is what Bonkers is getting at.

[bonkers]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732627' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:52 PM']Did you read my post? lol[/quote]

Yeah, did you read mine?

[quote]I believe such a group is a proportionate minority.[/quote]

So the majority will be going to heaven? yay!