Can We Dissent From The Magisterium?

[Apotheoun]

Canon 752 needs to be understood in the light of Pope John Paul's revision of canon 750 in the late 1990s). To better understand the nature of both canons I recommend reading Msgr. Brian Ferme's article entitled, "The Response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to the Dubium Concerning the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: Authority and Significance" (Periodica 85 / 1996: 689-727).

Ultimately, the pope revised the canon in order to differentiate between definitive teachings that have been proclaimed through a defining act, and those that have been definitively taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium through what is called "a non-defining act" (cf. the [i]Official CDF Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/i]).

Edited April 23, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1844665' date='Apr 23 2009, 04:54 PM']You need to read this specific "Profession of Faith" in the light of the "Professio Fidei" (1989), because that 1989 text gives three categories of Catholic teaching. The first two categories are infallible or definitive (i.e., teachings that are [i]de fide credenda[/i] or [i]de fide tenenda[/i]), and the third category requires religious submission (i.e., [i]obsequium religiosum[/i]) of intellect and will.



Here is the 1989 [i]Professio Fidei[/i]:

I, N., with firm faith believe and profess each and everything that is contained in the Symbol of faith, namely:

([i]The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed - Byzantine Catholic Version[/i])

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, and through whom all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man. He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. He rose again on the third day according to the scriptures, and He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

([i]The Three Additional or Concluding Propositions[/i])

With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the Word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.

I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teachings on faith and morals.

Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishop enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.[/quote]

The actual professio fidei on assuming an office to be exercised in the name of the Church contains the Filioque claue.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1844685' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM']Ultimately, the pope revised the canon in order to differentiate between definitive teachings that have been proclaimed through a defining act, and those that have been definitively taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium through what is called "a non-defining act" (cf. the [i]Official CDF Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/i]).[/quote]

You mean the same document that states that Papal Infallibility is, in fact, a dogma?

[The Bus Station]

[quote name='Deb' post='1827015' date='Apr 6 2009, 09:35 PM']If you want to be Catholic, you follow the magisterium. If you don't want to follow the magisterium or you don't follow it, you are not Catholic. Do not refer to yourself as Catholic, do not teach YOUR version of God's truth to anyone and say it is Catholic, do not sit and whine about all the things you can't do and still be Catholic. Just because you go and sit in a Catholic Church for an hour once a week does not make you a Catholic anymore than sitting in your garage for an hour a week makes you a car.

If you cannot hack being a member of the Church that Jesus Christ gave us or live by the Word he gave us, go, just quit whining about how you can't be your own God and belong to the Catholic Church too.
There are 30,000 protestant communities out there and surely one will let you do whatever it is you specifically want to do that is against the magisterium, the Catholic Church and God. That is why they are there. You will still be a member of the body of Christ by your baptism so you can work out your version of following God directly with him and well, pray for the best. Heck, go start your own church, everybody is doing that now days.

Do I sound unchristian like and harsh? Today, I am. I am so tired of pseudo-catholics (small c}presenting their warped and blasphemous beliefs to the world and then proclaiming they are Catholic. THEY ARE NOT. Quit leading everyone astray. You know what Jesus had to say about that. If you don't, go read the bible.

As far as being gay. I am sorry. You aren't a quadrapalegic. You aren't blind. You aren't deaf. You have your arms. Every one has a cross to bear. If having sex is the only thing that defines a human, we are all so, well, you know.
I am not gay. I am not married. I do not have a sexual relationship with myself or anyone else. Get over it. We all have our crosses to bear. Just because society tells you that sex is the most important thing to every human and you will die without it, guess what, IT IS BULL. A close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the full working of the Holy Spirit within you and a devotional love of GOD is the most important thing for every human being. The touch of God compared to sex? Please, there is no comparison. If you ever let yourself give yourself completely to the Lord, surrender all you are and all you will be, the Lord will touch you. When he does, you will wonder why anyone would care about sex. Heaven is going to blow your mind. There isn't even a frame of reference for what it is to be "in the love of God."

Quit trying to have heaven on earth. It is never going to happen. This is a test. This is a test. This is our cross and our journey to gain entrance to eternity. ETERNITY!!! Please, folks. Make that your goal. Our lifetime is a blink in the eyes of God. Is this such a hard concept? A blink here or eternity in heaven? Which do you think is worth the concentrating of your time and the devotion of all you are?

Follow the magisterium? Yes, all the way to the cross my Lord died on. If you aren't willing to die for the teachings of our Church. You don't belong here. I pray every day for the conversion of all sinners and also the conversion of all believers. Oh, that not a soul would be lost is my desire. My prayers alone can't do that. I sure wish they were that powerful. Give in, give all, give to God. There isn't anything you can't give up if you ask the Lord to hold you and guide you. He loves each one of us so very much and he is calling to us every minute of every day. Follow the magisterium, pray unceasingly, receive the sacraments worthily, mean that confession, beg for the courage to keep that vow to sin no more. God will reward you.
I pray all will find the sweet love of our Lord Jesus Christ. In Jesus name. Amen[/quote]

This is officially my favorite Phatmass post ever.

[rkwright]

ok.. but my original question still is unanswered. Is teaching on contraception and homosexuality a definitive teaching? How do we know this?

Secondly, if a teaching is a definitive teaching is it considered infallible.

CathM I see your post, are we just left in the dark on this?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1844795' date='Apr 23 2009, 03:45 PM']The actual professio fidei on assuming an office to be exercised in the name of the Church contains the Filioque claue.[/quote]
The filioque is not in the version used by the Eastern Catholic Churches.

It should be noted that the Vatican itself has affirmed that the definitive version of the creed, which is normative for all Christians, does not contain the filioque (cf. [i]Clarification on the Filioque[/i]), and that is probably why the CDF omitted the filioque from the creed in the document [i]Dominus Iesus[/i].

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1844864' date='Apr 23 2009, 04:09 PM']ok.. but my original question still is unanswered. Is teaching on contraception and homosexuality a definitive teaching? How do we know this?

Secondly, if a teaching is a definitive teaching is it considered infallible.

CathM I see your post, are we just left in the dark on this?[/quote]
No, your original question has been answered (i.e., by the CDF [i]Profession of Faith[/i] required of Fr. Nugent), which makes it clear that the teaching on homosexuality falls into the second category of teachings covered by the [i]Professio Fidei[/i]. In other words, the teaching on homosexuality must be held definitively (i.e., it is a truth [i]de fide tenenda[/i]).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1844870' date='Apr 23 2009, 06:10 PM']The filioque is not in the version used by the Eastern Catholic Churches.

It should be noted that the Vatican itself has affirmed that the definitive version of the creed, which is normative for all Christians, does not contain the filioque (cf. [i]Clarification on the Filioque[/i]), and that is probably why the CDF omitted the filioque from the creed in the document [i]Dominus Iesus[/i].[/quote]

Is the Clarification on the Filioque contained in the [i]Acta Apostolicae Sedis[/i]?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1844896' date='Apr 23 2009, 04:15 PM']Is the Clarification on the Filioque contained in the [i]Acta Apostolicae Sedis[/i]?[/quote]
Yes, it was published as an official document of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

[Resurrexi]

That doesn't really answer my question. The International Theological Commission, an official Vatican commission, has no magisterial authority and thus does not publish its official documents in the [i]Acta Apostolicae Sedis[/i], a publication containing only authoritative documents of the Holy See.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1844942' date='Apr 23 2009, 04:25 PM']That doesn't really answer my question. The International Theological Commission, an official Vatican commission, has no magisterial authority and thus does not publish its official documents in the [i]Acta Apostolicae Sedis[/i], a publication containing only authoritative documents of the Holy See.[/quote]
To the best of my recollection; yes, it was published in that organ, just as [i]Dominus Iesus[/i] was.

That said, I do not subscribe to your modern legalistic view of things, i.e., that some how being published in a periodical of the Holy See gives it dogmatic status. There was no "Acta Apostolicae Sedis" prior to the 20th century, and the previous journal was only an 19th century publication. I guess the doctrines of the Roman Church all date to the 19th and 20th centuries.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1844886' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:13 PM']No, your original question has been answered (i.e., by the CDF [i]Profession of Faith[/i] required of Fr. Nugent), which makes it clear that the teaching on homosexuality falls into the second category of teachings covered by the [i]Professio Fidei[/i]. In other words, the teaching on homosexuality must be held definitively (i.e., it is a truth [i]de fide tenenda[/i]).[/quote]

How do we know when something is taught definitively by the Church? Do we wait until the CDF tells us?

Secondly, and this may not come out right... but how can a bunch of documents or interpretations of the Bible which are fallible when they get mashed together it becomes an infallible teaching? Same question different way - Are all of the interpretations of the Bible and the cites to the CCC in this CDF document also infallible and definitive teachings?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1845060' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM']How do we know when something is taught definitively by the Church? Do we wait until the CDF tells us?[/quote]
We know because of the fact that is has been taught as a truth of faith always, everywhere, and by all. The actions of a curial department can do no more than confirm that something has been held definitively, but the definitive nature of the doctrine in question does not arise with that curial act, but pre-exists it as a perennial truth of faith. Beware of the tendency -- especially of modern times -- to reduce dogmatic truth to juridical categories.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1845060' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM']Secondly, and this may not come out right... but how can a bunch of documents or interpretations of the Bible which are fallible when they get mashed together it becomes an infallible teaching? Same question different way - Are all of the interpretations of the Bible and the cites to the CCC in this CDF document also infallible and definitive teachings?[/quote]
Taken alone documents of individual patriarchates, metropolia, and eparchies are fallible, but when the common teaching of all of these particular Churches agrees (diachronically, and not merely synchronically) that something belongs to the faith as a truth to be held ([i]de fide tenenda[/i]) or believed ([i]de fide credenda[/i]), it is then an infallible doctrine.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1845092' date='Apr 23 2009, 06:32 PM']We know because of the fact that is has been taught as a truth of faith always, everywhere, and by all. The actions of a curial department can do no more than confirm that something has been held definitively, but the definitive nature of the doctrine in question does not arise with that curial act, but pre-exists it as a perennial truth of faith. Beware of the tendency -- especially of modern times -- to reduce dogmatic truth to juridical categories.[/quote]

ok last question on this... who makes the call that something has always been held definitively everywhere?

And if the CDF comes out and says this is definitive, as they did in the homosexuality issue, whats to prevent that from being fallible?

I mean it looks like were taking a bunch of fallible documents or interpretations, putting them together, saying they're infallible - in a fallible document (or a fallible opinion).

Edited April 23, 2009 by rkwright

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1845135' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:55 PM']ok last question on this... who makes the call that something has always been held definitively everywhere?[/quote]
The consensus of the episcopate, again understood diachronically, makes the call.

Homosexuality as a "lifestyle" has been condemned in both scripture and tradition, and the universal episcopate has always taught that homosexual acts are gravely immoral, and so nothing can add to or change this teaching. An ecumenical council could be held in order to issue a decree on the matter (as unlikely as that is), but such a council could not change the existing teaching because it has always been taught.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Apotheoun