Can We Dissent From The Magisterium?

[PlainCatholic]

Spot on: well spoken.
[quote name='Deb' post='1827015' date='Apr 6 2009, 11:35 PM']If you want to be Catholic, you follow the magisterium. If you don't want to follow the magisterium or you don't follow it, you are not Catholic. Do not refer to yourself as Catholic, do not teach YOUR version of God's truth to anyone and say it is Catholic, do not sit and whine about all the things you can't do and still be Catholic. Just because you go and sit in a Catholic Church for an hour once a week does not make you a Catholic anymore than sitting in your garage for an hour a week makes you a car.

If you cannot hack being a member of the Church that Jesus Christ gave us or live by the Word he gave us, go, just quit whining about how you can't be your own God and belong to the Catholic Church too.
There are 30,000 protestant communities out there and surely one will let you do whatever it is you specifically want to do that is against the magisterium, the Catholic Church and God. That is why they are there. You will still be a member of the body of Christ by your baptism so you can work out your version of following God directly with him and well, pray for the best. Heck, go start your own church, everybody is doing that now days.

Do I sound unchristian like and harsh? Today, I am. I am so tired of pseudo-catholics (small c}presenting their warped and blasphemous beliefs to the world and then proclaiming they are Catholic. THEY ARE NOT. Quit leading everyone astray. You know what Jesus had to say about that. If you don't, go read the bible.

As far as being gay. I am sorry. You aren't a quadrapalegic. You aren't blind. You aren't deaf. You have your arms. Every one has a cross to bear. If having sex is the only thing that defines a human, we are all so, well, you know.
I am not gay. I am not married. I do not have a sexual relationship with myself or anyone else. Get over it. We all have our crosses to bear. Just because society tells you that sex is the most important thing to every human and you will die without it, guess what, IT IS BULL. A close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the full working of the Holy Spirit within you and a devotional love of GOD is the most important thing for every human being. The touch of God compared to sex? Please, there is no comparison. If you ever let yourself give yourself completely to the Lord, surrender all you are and all you will be, the Lord will touch you. When he does, you will wonder why anyone would care about sex. Heaven is going to blow your mind. There isn't even a frame of reference for what it is to be "in the love of God."

Quit trying to have heaven on earth. It is never going to happen. This is a test. This is a test. This is our cross and our journey to gain entrance to eternity. ETERNITY!!! Please, folks. Make that your goal. Our lifetime is a blink in the eyes of God. Is this such a hard concept? A blink here or eternity in heaven? Which do you think is worth the concentrating of your time and the devotion of all you are?

Follow the magisterium? Yes, all the way to the cross my Lord died on. If you aren't willing to die for the teachings of our Church. You don't belong here. I pray every day for the conversion of all sinners and also the conversion of all believers. Oh, that not a soul would be lost is my desire. My prayers alone can't do that. I sure wish they were that powerful. Give in, give all, give to God. There isn't anything you can't give up if you ask the Lord to hold you and guide you. He loves each one of us so very much and he is calling to us every minute of every day. Follow the magisterium, pray unceasingly, receive the sacraments worthily, mean that confession, beg for the courage to keep that vow to sin no more. God will reward you.
I pray all will find the sweet love of our Lord Jesus Christ. In Jesus name. Amen[/quote]

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1829150' date='Apr 8 2009, 06:05 PM']The authority of the Magisterium cannot direct us to do evil. It's simply not possible.[/quote]


Ok, well then you ought to be ok with Popes forcing Jews to live in a Ghetto, wear yellow hats, and humiliate themselves in front of Christians simply for being Christians. (See my last Post)

This teaching is a little more nuanced in that there are many levels of the Magisterium. I will attach a pie chart for you all down below.

That being said, anything taught by the [b]ordinary universal magisterium [/b]or defined b[b]y the extraordinary magisterium[/b] we must hold. It is indeed impossible for those to lead us into error.

How ever the Magisterium, or teaching authority of the Church, is not always universal or extra-ordinary. And so in those cases we only owe assent of mind and will, which allows us to disagree with certain teachings especially if we can with reason see they are not true.

My favorite example of a non universal ordinary teaching which we can disagree with for good reason is the USCCB's teaching on hand guns. That they are the cause of all crime and should be eliminated from society is simply not true.

Another example of a ordinary non universal teaching that I disagree with, though accept and follow, is communion in the hand. It is a really bad idea, but a valid directive from our Bishops. And so I teach how to receive the Sacrament in the hand when I teach first communion classes.

[img]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j210/Theoketos/Bitnap.jpg[/img]

[Theoketos]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828923' date='Apr 8 2009, 02:12 PM']Is the chart on this wiki page accurate? Its about half-way down...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium[/url][/quote]


Yes it is as of April 15th 11:30 CST

[Theoketos]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828915' date='Apr 8 2009, 02:08 PM']A few questions regarding 2 posts...

What does "assent of mind and will" mean? How can one have "assent of mind and will" and disagree with something that is "fallible and have sometimes been dreadfully wrong"?


This is more basic... but I always forget
but under 750 §1 what is the difference between by something revealed by the solemn Magisterium and something revealed by the ordinary universal Magisterium?

Under §752 what does it mean to exercise the authentic magisterium?[/quote]

Go to this link and read about the Canon Law expressed. It will clear it up.

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=X5rcnhLnRYMC&pg=PA916&lpg=PA916&dq=religious+submission+of+the+intellect+and+will&source=bl&ots=ExmetmHFZB&sig=u3SI1iUAREcMSIsv8F33_EKKTxI&hl=en&ei=SAzmSdroAZL2MZvunJAJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA917,M1"]http://books.google.com/books?id=X5rcnhLnR...num=6#PPA917,M1[/url]

[Guest]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1836139' date='Apr 15 2009, 11:56 AM']Ok, well then you ought to be ok with Popes forcing Jews to live in a Ghetto, wear yellow hats, and humiliate themselves in front of Christians simply for being Christians. (See my last Post)

This teaching is a little more nuanced in that there are many levels of the Magisterium. I will attach a pie chart for you all down below.

That being said, anything taught by the [b]ordinary universal magisterium [/b]or defined b[b]y the extraordinary magisterium[/b] we must hold. It is indeed impossible for those to lead us into error.

How ever the Magisterium, or teaching authority of the Church, is not always universal or extra-ordinary. And so in those cases we only owe assent of mind and will, which allows us to disagree with certain teachings especially if we can with reason see they are not true.

My favorite example of a non universal ordinary teaching which we can disagree with for good reason is the USCCB's teaching on hand guns. That they are the cause of all crime and should be eliminated from society is simply not true.

Another example of a ordinary non universal teaching that I disagree with, though accept and follow, is communion in the hand. It is a really bad idea, but a valid directive from our Bishops. And so I teach how to receive the Sacrament in the hand when I teach first communion classes.

[img]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j210/Theoketos/Bitnap.jpg[/img][/quote]



How far in error could a pope go ?

Is it unlimited ?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1836139' date='Apr 15 2009, 10:56 AM']Ok, well then you ought to be ok with Popes forcing Jews to live in a Ghetto, wear yellow hats, and humiliate themselves in front of Christians simply for being Christians. (See my last Post)

This teaching is a little more nuanced in that there are many levels of the Magisterium. I will attach a pie chart for you all down below.

That being said, anything taught by the [b]ordinary universal magisterium [/b]or defined b[b]y the extraordinary magisterium[/b] we must hold. It is indeed impossible for those to lead us into error.

How ever the Magisterium, or teaching authority of the Church, is not always universal or extra-ordinary. And so in those cases we only owe assent of mind and will, which allows us to disagree with certain teachings especially if we can with reason see they are not true.

My favorite example of a non universal ordinary teaching which we can disagree with for good reason is the USCCB's teaching on hand guns. That they are the cause of all crime and should be eliminated from society is simply not true.

Another example of a ordinary non universal teaching that I disagree with, though accept and follow, is communion in the hand. It is a really bad idea, but a valid directive from our Bishops. And so I teach how to receive the Sacrament in the hand when I teach first communion classes.

[img]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j210/Theoketos/Bitnap.jpg[/img][/quote]
Yes, of course that's what I meant. I can't remember why, but I didn't have time to clarify my post.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1836239' date='Apr 15 2009, 02:40 PM']How far in error could a pope go ?

Is it unlimited ?[/quote]


MMM There is a limit to error as there is a limit to evil. Nothing or no one is completely evil, and there have been some serious evil men as popes. And yet no pope has ever taught heresy.

That being said, there is a serious serious gravity when the Pope speaks.

And we cannot dissent against the natural law. That is just silly.

[Guest]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1836750' date='Apr 15 2009, 10:09 PM']MMM There is a limit to error as there is a limit to evil. Nothing or no one is completely evil, and there have been some serious evil men as popes. And yet no pope has ever taught heresy.

That being said, there is a serious serious gravity when the Pope speaks.

And we cannot dissent against the natural law. That is just silly.[/quote]


could he work with the antichrist to issue in the mark of the beast ?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1836139' date='Apr 15 2009, 11:56 AM']Ok, well then you ought to be ok with Popes forcing Jews to live in a Ghetto, wear yellow hats, and humiliate themselves in front of Christians simply for being Christians. (See my last Post)

This teaching is a little more nuanced in that there are many levels of the Magisterium. I will attach a pie chart for you all down below.

That being said, anything taught by the [b]ordinary universal magisterium [/b]or defined b[b]y the extraordinary magisterium[/b] we must hold. It is indeed impossible for those to lead us into error.

How ever the Magisterium, or teaching authority of the Church, is not always universal or extra-ordinary. And so in those cases we only owe assent of mind and will, which allows us to disagree with certain teachings especially if we can with reason see they are not true.

My favorite example of a non universal ordinary teaching which we can disagree with for good reason is the USCCB's teaching on hand guns. That they are the cause of all crime and should be eliminated from society is simply not true.

Another example of a ordinary non universal teaching that I disagree with, though accept and follow, is communion in the hand. It is a really bad idea, but a valid directive from our Bishops. And so I teach how to receive the Sacrament in the hand when I teach first communion classes.

[img]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j210/Theoketos/Bitnap.jpg[/img][/quote]

I remember seeing serveral upperclassmen with the same chart last semester (for your class I presume)

[rkwright]

So where does say the teaching on contraception or homosexuality fall.

Obviously its not extraordinary teaching of the Pope or Bishops... is it ordinary and universal teaching of the Church?

[Apotheoun]

[i]Below is a copy of the Profession of Faith that the CDF required Fr. Robert Nugent to accept as it concerns the Church's teaching on the disordered nature of the homosexual inclination and the immorality of homosexual acts.[/i]


[size=3][b]Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - Profession of faith[/b]

With firm faith I believe that God, in creating human beings as male and female, has created them equal as persons and complementary as male and female. In marriage, they are united by God and become "one flesh" (Gn 2:24), in a union that is by its very nature ordered to the procreation and education of offspring (cf. Gn 1:28) and to the good of the spouses (cf. Gaudium et spes 12, 48-51; Familiaris consortio 11-15; Mulieris dignitatem 6-7; Codex Iuris Canonici can 1055; Catechism of the Catholic Church 371-372).

I firmly accept and hold that every baptized person, "clothed with Christ" (Gal 3:27), is called to live the virtue of chastity according to his particular state of life; married persons are called to live conjugal chastity; all others must practice chastity in the form of continence. Sexual intercourse may take place only within marriage (cf. Persona humana 7, 11-12; Familiaris consortio 11; Catechism of the Catholic Church 2348-2350).

I also firmly accept and hold that homosexual acts are always objectively evil. On the solid foundation of a constant biblical testimony, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity (cf. Gn 19:1-29; Lv 18:22, 10:13; Rm 1:24-27; I Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10), Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered (cf. Persona humana 8; Homosexualitatis problema 3-8; Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357, 2396).

I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teaching that the homosexual inclination, though not in itself a sin, constitutes a tendency towards behavior that is intrinsically evil, and therefore must be considered objectively disordered (Homosexualitatis problema 3; Catechism of the Catholic Church 2358).

I also adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teaching that, while homosexual persons must be received with respect and protected from all unjust forms of discrimination, no one can claim any right to engage in homosexual behavior (cf. Persona humana 8; Homosexualitatis problema 9-10; Catechism of the Catholic Church 2358).

Moreover, I also adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teaching that homosexual persons, by the virtues of self-mastery which lead to inner freedom, by prayer and sacramental grace and other forms of assistance, can advance toward Christian perfection (Homosexualitatis problema 12; Catechism of the Catholic Church 2359).[/size]

[dominicansoul]

[quote]Can We Dissent From The Magisterium?, Is it ever ok?[/quote]

um....no......

[rkwright]

Interesting.

So is it ordinary and universal teaching of the Church? Is it infallible?

The Canon Law 750§2 says that everything proposed definitively by the Bishops must be believed.

How do we know when something is proposed definitively? Is it infallible?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1844600' date='Apr 23 2009, 02:18 PM']Interesting.

So is it ordinary and universal teaching of the Church? Is it infallible?

The Canon Law 750§2 says that everything proposed definitively by the Bishops must be believed.

How do we know when something is proposed definitively? Is it infallible?[/quote]
You need to read this specific "Profession of Faith" in the light of the "Professio Fidei" (1989), because that 1989 text gives three categories of Catholic teaching. The first two categories are infallible or definitive (i.e., teachings that are [i]de fide credenda[/i] or [i]de fide tenenda[/i]), and the third category requires religious submission (i.e., [i]obsequium religiosum[/i]) of intellect and will.



Here is the 1989 [i]Professio Fidei[/i]:

I, N., with firm faith believe and profess each and everything that is contained in the Symbol of faith, namely:

([i]The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed - Byzantine Catholic Version[/i])

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, and through whom all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man. He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. He rose again on the third day according to the scriptures, and He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

([i]The Three Additional or Concluding Propositions[/i])

With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the Word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.

I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teachings on faith and morals.

Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishop enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Apotheoun

[CatherineM]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1844600' date='Apr 23 2009, 03:18 PM']Interesting.

So is it ordinary and universal teaching of the Church? Is it infallible?

The Canon Law 750§2 says that everything proposed definitively by the Bishops must be believed.

How do we know when something is proposed definitively? Is it infallible?[/quote]

I have thought many times that they have made some items vague on purpose as to their place on the definitive totem pole. Since we should follow everything, they figure that definitiveness should be left to them in the fullness of time. Wiggle room so to speak.