Can We Dissent From The Magisterium?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='track2004' post='1728762' date='Dec 15 2008, 07:33 PM']but I don't get why God cares who I'm sleeping with (in a long term committed relationship, etc, etc).[/quote]

Because God cares about every single thing you do. He doesn't turn his interest in you on and off according to the subject matter. That's what PEOPLE do.

[mortify]

[quote name='track2004' post='1728762' date='Dec 15 2008, 07:33 PM']The teachings on sexuality seem very tertiary to being Catholic. I can't assume that the Church teaching is perfect like you can, it's just not something I can comprehend. Also I get why the transubstantiation is vital to the teaching and theology, but I don't get why God cares who I'm sleeping with (in a long term committed relationship, etc, etc).[/quote]

What would you do if God appeared to you and told you you can't sleep with the same sex, that abortion is wrong, etc?

[track2004]

But it seems like he shouldn't care about everything I do equally. Being gay and dating (theoretically at least) seems a lot less worse than killing people, but both have equal culpability? We (the gays) didn't even make the top 10 list! We barely got mentioned in the whole book! How is my sex life or my thinking that people are entitled to their own sex lives so bad that God would kick me out of His church?

I know I'm unrepentant about the gay thing, I know that God has a right to be upset with me about that if y'all are right, but it does seem harsh to kick me out of the only place I can go to pray the only way I know how to.

[mortify]

[quote name='track2004' post='1728826' date='Dec 15 2008, 08:46 PM']But it seems like he shouldn't care about everything I do equally. Being gay and dating (theoretically at least) seems a lot less worse than killing people, but both have equal culpability? We (the gays) didn't even make the top 10 list! We barely got mentioned in the whole book! How is my sex life or my thinking that people are entitled to their own sex lives so bad that God would kick me out of His church?

I know I'm unrepentant about the gay thing, I know that God has a right to be upset with me about that if y'all are right, but it does seem harsh to kick me out of the only place I can go to pray the only way I know how to.[/quote]

Track, well first let's reach some agreement.

Biblically speaking, does God approve of homosexual actions?

[track2004]

[quote name='mortify' post='1728825' date='Dec 15 2008, 08:46 PM']What would you do if God appeared to you and told you you can't sleep with the same sex, that abortion is wrong, etc?[/quote]

Switch teams.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1726302' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:39 PM']Nope, it is not technically ok to disagree with the Magisterium and call yourself "Catholic".[/quote]

That is simply not true. There are some levels of the Magisterium which we only assent of Mind and Will toward. These levels are fallible and have sometimes been dreadfully wrong. For example

[quote]“ Laws and ordinances to be followed by Jews living in the Holy See [decreed by the] Bishop [of Rome, the Pope] Paul, servant of the servants of God, for future recollection.

Since it is completely senseless and inappropriate to be in a situation where Christian piety allows the Jews (whose guilt—all of their own doing—has condemned them to eternal slavery) access to our society and even to live among us; indeed, they are without gratitude to Christians, as, instead of thanks for gracious treatment, they return invective, and among themselves, instead of the slavery, which they deserve, they manage to claim superiority: we, who recently learned that these very Jews have insolently invaded Rome from a number of the Papal States, territories and domains, to the extent that not only have they mingled with Christians (even when close to their churches) and wearing no identifying garments, but to dwell in homes, indeed, even in the more noble [dwellings] of the states, territories and domains in which they lingered, conducting business from their houses and in the streets and dealing in real estate; they even have nurses and housemaids and other Christians as hired servants. And they would dare to perpetrate a wide variety of other dishonorable things, contemptuous of the [very] name Christian. Considering that the Church of Rome tolerates these very Jews (evidence of the true Christian faith) and to this end [we declare]: that they, won over by the piety and kindness of the See, should at long last recognize their erroneous ways, and should lose no time in seeing the true light of the catholic faith, and thus to agree that while they persist in their errors, realizing that they are slaves because of their deeds, whereas Christians have been freed through our Lord God Jesus Christ, and that it is unwarranted for it to appear that the sons of free women serve the sons of maids. [Therefore,]

§ 1. Desiring firstly, as much as we can with [the help of] God, to beneficially provide, by this [our decree] that will forever be in force, we ordain that for the rest of time, in the City as well as in other states, territories and domains of the Church of Rome itself, all Jews are to live in only one [quarter] to which there is only one entrance and from which there is but one exit, and if there is not that capacity [in one such quarter, then], in two or three or however many may be enough; [in any case] they should reside entirely side by side in designated streets and be thoroughly separate from the residences of Christians, [This is to be enforced] by our authority in the City and by that of our representatives in other states, lands and domains noted above.

§ 2. Furthermore, in each and every state, territory and domain in which they are living, they will have only one synagogue, in its customary location, and they will construct no other new ones, nor can they own buildings. Furthermore, all of their synagogues, besides the one allowed, are to be destroyed and demolished. And the properties, which they currently own, they must sell to Christians within a period of time to be determined by the magistrates themselves.

§ 3. Moreover, concerning the matter that Jews should be recognizable everywhere: [to this end] men must wear a hat, women, indeed, some other evident sign, yellow in color, that must not be concealed or covered by any means, and must be tightly affixed [sewn]; and furthermore, they can not be absolved or excused from the obligation to wear the hat or other emblem of this type to any extent whatever and under any pretext whatsoever of their rank or prominence or of their ability to tolerate [this] adversity, either by a chamberlain of the Church, clerics of an Apostolic court, or their superiors, or by legates of the Holy See or their immediate subordinates.

§ 4. Also, they may not have nurses or maids or any other Christian domestic or service by Christian women in wet-nursing or feeding their children.

§ 5. They may not work or have work done on Sundays or on other public feast days declared by the Church.

§ 6. Nor may they incriminate Christians in any way, or promulgate false or forged agreements.

§ 7. And they may not presume in any way to play, eat or fraternize with Christians.

§ 8. And they cannot use other than Latin or Italian words in short-term account books that they hold with Christians, and, if they should use them, such records would not be binding on Christians [in legal proceedings].

§ 9. Moreover, these Jews are to be limited to the trade of rag-picking, or “cencinariae” (as it is said in the vernacular), and they cannot trade in grain, barley or any other commodity essential to human welfare.

§ 10. And those among them who are physicians, even if summoned and inquired after, cannot attend or take part in the care of Christians.

§ 11. And they are not to be addressed as superiors [even] by poor Christians.

§ 12. And they are to close their [loan] accounts entirely every thirty days; should fewer than thirty days elapse, they shall not be counted as an entire month, but only as the actual number of days, and furthermore, they will terminate the reckoning as of this number of days and not for the term of an entire month. In addition, they are prohibited from selling [goods put up as] collateral, put up as temporary security for their money, unless [such goods were] put up a full eighteen months prior to the day on which such [collateral] would be forfeit; at the expiration of the aforementioned number of months, if Jews have sold a security deposit of this sort, they must sign over all money in excess of the principal of the loan to the owner of the collateral.

§ 13. And the statutes of states, territories and domains (in which they have lived for a period of time) concerning primacy of Christians, are to be adhered to and followed without exception.

§ 14. And, should they, in any manner whatsoever, be deficient in the foregoing, it would be treated as a crime: in Rome, by us or by our clergy, or by others authorized by us, and in the aforementioned states, territories and domains by their respective magistrates, just as if they were rebels and criminals by the jurisdiction in which the offense takes place, they would be accused by all Christian people, by us and by our clergy, and could be punished at the discretion of the proper authorities and judges.

§ 15. [This will be in effect] notwithstanding opposing decrees and apostolic rules, and regardless of any tolerance whatever or special rights and dispensation for these Jews [granted] by any Roman Pontiff prior to us and the aforementioned See or of their legates, or by the courts of the Church of Rome and the clergy of the Apostolic courts, or by other of their officials, no matter their import and form, and with whatever (even with repeated derogations) and with other legally valid sub-clauses, and erasures and other decrees, even [those that are] “motu proprio” and from “certain knowledge” and have been repeatedly approved and renewed. By this document, even if, instead of their sufficient derogation, concerning them and their entire import, special, specific, expressed and individual, even word for word, moreover, not by means of general, even important passages, mention, or whatever other expression was favored, or whatever exquisite form had to be retained, matters of such import, and, if word for word, with nothing deleted, would be inserted into them in original form in the present document holding that rather than being sufficiently expressed, those things that would stay in effect in full force by this change alone, we specially and expressly derogate, as well as any others [that might be] contrary to them.

Declared at St. Mark’s, Rome, in the one thousand five hundred fifty fifth year of the incarnation of our lord, one day prior to the Ides of July, in the first year of our Papacy.”[/quote]

You really want to not disagree with that?

That being said, homosexuality and other moral evils like abortion and contraception, being against Natural Law belong to the Ordinary Universal Episcopal Magisterium. We owe assent of faith to it.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='track2004' post='1728826' date='Dec 15 2008, 08:46 PM']But it seems like he shouldn't care about everything I do equally. Being gay and dating (theoretically at least) seems a lot less worse than killing people, but both have equal culpability? We (the gays) didn't even make the top 10 list! We barely got mentioned in the whole book! How is my sex life or my thinking that people are entitled to their own sex lives so bad that God would kick me out of His church?

I know I'm unrepentant about the gay thing, I know that God has a right to be upset with me about that if y'all are right, but it does seem harsh to kick me out of the only place I can go to pray the only way I know how to.[/quote]

I'm sorry to break it to you, but "you guys" certainly DID get mentioned on a very big list: homosexuality is listed in the Bible as "one of the four sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance". And as for the BIG list, one could look at it this way:


[quote]A homosexual lifestyle actually violates a number of the 10 Commandments:

ONE:'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

Homosexual fanatics make a "god" of their cause and place it ahead of all else.

TWO:'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Radical homosexual agendas became their "god," and they defame the God of Isreal and His Word.

THREE:'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

They endlessly lie about God and His Word and misuse His Name to support their cause.


FIVE:'Honor your father and your mother.'

A homosexual lifestyle choice is the ultimate insult and shame to the parents that brought us life. "Coming out" is selfish, and the ultimate dishonor to parents.

SIX:'You shall not murder.'

About a half million Americans, a majority of them homosexuals, received a death sentence from HIV/AIDS as a result of choosing to engage in homosexual acts and choosing to expose others to its dangers.

SEVEN:'You shall not commit adultery.'

Homosexual acts are adulterous.

EIGHT:'You shall not steal.'

Exposing others to homosexual acts steals that other persons virtue and purity.

NINE:'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Homosexual activisim is based on false witness and all sorts of untruth.

TEN:'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Homosexuality seldom results in any sort of stable relationship. It is characterized by extreme lust and promiscuity and coveting the virtue of others.[/quote]

[track2004]

[quote name='mortify' post='1728827' date='Dec 15 2008, 08:49 PM']Track, well first let's reach some agreement.

Biblically speaking, does God approve of homosexual actions?[/quote]

God says men laying with other men as a woman is an abomination. This is in the same book as the whole bit about shrimp and when it's okay to sell family into slavery. The actual lines are never read in a reading during Mass.

God doesn't say anything about lesbians.

Jesus doesn't say anything about any of it.

Holy Ghost never says anything except "wooooo holy ghost...."

[dairygirl4u2c]

[indent]There are some level of the Magisterium which we only assent of Mind and will toward. These levels are falliable and have sometimes been dreadfully wrong. For example

QUOTE
“ Laws and ordinances to be followed by Jews living in the Holy See [decreed by the] Bishop [of Rome, the Pope] Paul, servant of the servants of God, for future recollection.

Since it is completely senseless and inappropriate to be in a situation where Christian piety allows the Jews (whose guilt—all of their own doing—has condemned them to eternal slavery) access to our society and even to live among us; indeed, they are without gratitude to Christians, as, instead of thanks for gracious treatment, they return invective, and among themselves, instead of the slavery, which they deserve, they manage to claim superiority: we, who recently learned that these very Jews have insolently invaded Rome from a number of the Papal States, territories and domains, to the extent that not only have they mingled with Christians (even when close to their churches) and wearing no identifying garments, but to dwell in homes, indeed, even in the more noble [dwellings] of the states, territories and domains in which they lingered, conducting business from their houses and in the streets and dealing in real estate; they even have nurses and housemaids and other Christians as hired servants. And they would dare to perpetrate a wide variety of other dishonorable things, contemptuous of the [very] name Christian. Considering that the Church of Rome tolerates these very Jews (evidence of the true Christian faith) and to this end [we declare]: that they, won over by the piety and kindness of the See, should at long last recognize their erroneous ways, and should lose no time in seeing the true light of the catholic faith, and thus to agree that while they persist in their errors, realizing that they are slaves because of their deeds, whereas Christians have been freed through our Lord God Jesus Christ, and that it is unwarranted for it to appear that the sons of free women serve the sons of maids. [Therefore,]

§ 1. Desiring firstly, as much as we can with [the help of] God, to beneficially provide, by this [our decree] that will forever be in force, we ordain that for the rest of time, in the City as well as in other states, territories and domains of the Church of Rome itself, all Jews are to live in only one [quarter] to which there is only one entrance and from which there is but one exit, and if there is not that capacity [in one such quarter, then], in two or three or however many may be enough; [in any case] they should reside entirely side by side in designated streets and be thoroughly separate from the residences of Christians, [This is to be enforced] by our authority in the City and by that of our representatives in other states, lands and domains noted above.

§ 2. Furthermore, in each and every state, territory and domain in which they are living, they will have only one synagogue, in its customary location, and they will construct no other new ones, nor can they own buildings. Furthermore, all of their synagogues, besides the one allowed, are to be destroyed and demolished. And the properties, which they currently own, they must sell to Christians within a period of time to be determined by the magistrates themselves.

§ 3. Moreover, concerning the matter that Jews should be recognizable everywhere: [to this end] men must wear a hat, women, indeed, some other evident sign, yellow in color, that must not be concealed or covered by any means, and must be tightly affixed [sewn]; and furthermore, they can not be absolved or excused from the obligation to wear the hat or other emblem of this type to any extent whatever and under any pretext whatsoever of their rank or prominence or of their ability to tolerate [this] adversity, either by a chamberlain of the Church, clerics of an Apostolic court, or their superiors, or by legates of the Holy See or their immediate subordinates.

§ 4. Also, they may not have nurses or maids or any other Christian domestic or service by Christian women in wet-nursing or feeding their children.

§ 5. They may not work or have work done on Sundays or on other public feast days declared by the Church.

§ 6. Nor may they incriminate Christians in any way, or promulgate false or forged agreements.

§ 7. And they may not presume in any way to play, eat or fraternize with Christians.

§ 8. And they cannot use other than Latin or Italian words in short-term account books that they hold with Christians, and, if they should use them, such records would not be binding on Christians [in legal proceedings].

§ 9. Moreover, these Jews are to be limited to the trade of rag-picking, or “cencinariae” (as it is said in the vernacular), and they cannot trade in grain, barley or any other commodity essential to human welfare.

§ 10. And those among them who are physicians, even if summoned and inquired after, cannot attend or take part in the care of Christians.

§ 11. And they are not to be addressed as superiors [even] by poor Christians.

§ 12. And they are to close their [loan] accounts entirely every thirty days; should fewer than thirty days elapse, they shall not be counted as an entire month, but only as the actual number of days, and furthermore, they will terminate the reckoning as of this number of days and not for the term of an entire month. In addition, they are prohibited from selling [goods put up as] collateral, put up as temporary security for their money, unless [such goods were] put up a full eighteen months prior to the day on which such [collateral] would be forfeit; at the expiration of the aforementioned number of months, if Jews have sold a security deposit of this sort, they must sign over all money in excess of the principal of the loan to the owner of the collateral.

§ 13. And the statutes of states, territories and domains (in which they have lived for a period of time) concerning primacy of Christians, are to be adhered to and followed without exception.

§ 14. And, should they, in any manner whatsoever, be deficient in the foregoing, it would be treated as a crime: in Rome, by us or by our clergy, or by others authorized by us, and in the aforementioned states, territories and domains by their respective magistrates, just as if they were rebels and criminals by the jurisdiction in which the offense takes place, they would be accused by all Christian people, by us and by our clergy, and could be punished at the discretion of the proper authorities and judges.

§ 15. [This will be in effect] notwithstanding opposing decrees and apostolic rules, and regardless of any tolerance whatever or special rights and dispensation for these Jews [granted] by any Roman Pontiff prior to us and the aforementioned See or of their legates, or by the courts of the Church of Rome and the clergy of the Apostolic courts, or by other of their officials, no matter their import and form, and with whatever (even with repeated derogations) and with other legally valid sub-clauses, and erasures and other decrees, even [those that are] “motu proprio” and from “certain knowledge” and have been repeatedly approved and renewed. By this document, even if, instead of their sufficient derogation, concerning them and their entire import, special, specific, expressed and individual, even word for word, moreover, not by means of general, even important passages, mention, or whatever other expression was favored, or whatever exquisite form had to be retained, matters of such import, and, if word for word, with nothing deleted, would be inserted into them in original form in the present document holding that rather than being sufficiently expressed, those things that would stay in effect in full force by this change alone, we specially and expressly derogate, as well as any others [that might be] contrary to them.

Declared at St. Mark’s, Rome, in the one thousand five hundred fifty fifth year of the incarnation of our lord, one day prior to the Ides of July, in the first year of our Papacy.”[/indent]

[track2004]

[quote]A homosexual lifestyle actually violates a number of the 10 Commandments:

ONE:'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

Homosexual fanatics make a "god" of their cause and place it ahead of all else.[/quote]

Not really. I'm here arguing with you about whether I am excommunicated, and I'm not happy the Church, God's Church, doesn't want me there.

[quote]TWO:'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Radical homosexual agendas became their "god," and they defame the God of Isreal and His Word.[/quote]

Not all homosexuals are radical. My "homosexual agenda" looks a lot like yours: (1) shower, (2) study, (3) make dinner, (4) try to have an honest discussion online (5) study more, (6) watch Heroes, (7) regret watching Heroes, (8) study...

[quote]THREE:'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
They endlessly lie about God and His Word and misuse His Name to support their cause.[/quote]

This is just getting to be a general attack on a group of people.

[quote]FIVE:'Honor your father and your mother.'
A homosexual lifestyle choice is the ultimate insult and shame to the parents that brought us life. "Coming out" is selfish, and the ultimate dishonor to parents.[/quote]

Coming out to friends, coworkers, random people on boards, and esp family is hard. It is def not the "ultimate dishonor" and if it was your parents are mean.

[quote]SIX:'You shall not murder.'

About a half million Americans, a majority of them homosexuals, received a death sentence from HIV/AIDS as a result of choosing to engage in homosexual acts and choosing to expose others to its dangers.[/quote]

This attack is just hurtful. We didn't start this and we fought and are still fighting to cure it. If you use this argument today Africa, straight people and the elderly are all evil because they spread HIV/AIDS. The new instances of it in the gay community are actually pretty low now.

[quote]SEVEN:'You shall not commit adultery.'

Homosexual acts are adulterous.[/quote]

What? How? Who am I adultering?

[quote]EIGHT:'You shall not steal.'

Exposing others to homosexual acts steals that other persons virtue and purity.[/quote]

REALLY?!

[quote]NINE:'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Homosexual activisim is based on false witness and all sorts of untruth.[/quote]

"Against your neighbor" not "to your neighbor"

[quote]TEN:'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Homosexuality seldom results in any sort of stable relationship. It is characterized by extreme lust and promiscuity and coveting the virtue of others.[/quote]

Homosexuality is characterized by dating someone of the same sex. Lust, promiscuity and other sins aren't necessarily homosexual by nature. Most 18 year olds are lustly and promiscuous, gay or straight.

But my neighbor's wife is really pretty, I'll give you that.

[mortify]

[quote name='track2004' post='1728843' date='Dec 15 2008, 09:03 PM']God says men laying with other men as a woman is an abomination. This is in the same book as the whole bit about shrimp and when it's okay to sell family into slavery. The actual lines are never read in a reading during Mass.

God doesn't say anything about lesbians.

Jesus doesn't say anything about any of it.

Holy Ghost never says anything except "wooooo holy ghost...."[/quote]

So you believe either God did prohibit homosexual acts, but this no longer applies... or that He forbid men to sleep with men, but not women with women?

Do you believe the Church has a teaching authority that can infallibly interpret the Bible?

[track2004]

Can we start another thread about this? I don't want to hijack this one. We can argue about how morally reprehensible homosexual act are somewhere else and let these people continue to talk about disagreeing with the Magisterium because at this point it is clear that I do.

[Barbarus]

[quote name='track2004' post='1728843' date='Dec 15 2008, 08:03 PM']God says men laying with other men as a woman is an abomination. This is in the same book as the whole bit about shrimp and when it's okay to sell family into slavery. The actual lines are never read in a reading during Mass.

God doesn't say anything about lesbians.

Jesus doesn't say anything about any of it.[/quote]
This is not true. In Romans 1, St. Paul writes the following.
[quote]While claiming to be wise, they became geniuses and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[i] Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. [b]Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another[/b].[/i] Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.[/quote] (emphasis mine)
This passage has long been held to include lesbian activity as well as homosexual activity.

Jesus did not specifically address homosexuality, you are right, but he did say that if a man even looks at a woman with lust he has committed adultery with her in his heart. This applies to any sort of lustful behaviors.

[mortify]

Peace Theotekos,

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1728838' date='Dec 15 2008, 08:59 PM']That is simply not true. There are some levels of the Magisterium which we only assent of Mind and Will toward. These levels are fallible and have sometimes been dreadfully wrong. For example[/quote]

Assenting with mind and will means *obeying* the Magisterium even when a fallible command is in "dreadful error."

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]25. With regard to civil authority, Leo Xlll, boldly breaking through the confines imposed by Liberalism, fearlessly taught that government must not be thought a mere guardian of law and of good order, but rather must put forth every effort so that "through the entire scheme of laws and institutions . . . both public and individual well-being may develop spontaneously out of the very structure and administration of the State."[19] Just freedom of action must, of course, be left both to individual citizens and to families, yet only on condition that the common good be preserved and wrong to any individual be abolished. The function of the rulers of the State, moreover, is to watch over the community and its parts; but in protecting private individuals in their rights, chief consideration ought to be given to the weak and the poor. "For the nation, as it were, of the rich is guarded by its own defenses and is in less need of governmental protection, whereas the suffering multitude, without the means to protect itself relies especially on the protection of the State. Wherefore, since wageworkers are numbered among the great mass of the needy, the State must include them under its special care and foresight."[20][/quote]

that should prob be added to the list of papal quotes