Abortion And Punishment

[bonkers]

Hi guys,

I'm wondering what your theory is on the concept of abortion and punishment. I've heard the pro-life people say the foetus is a human life no less equal to that of an alive person (outside the womb) and therefore no less deserving of basic rights to life. For this reason, it is said abortion is an act of murder, and there is no ever reasonable justification for it, correct?

So, hypothetically speaking, if abortion were to be made illegal in the US, what would be an appropriate punishment for those who commit abortion? Would you advocate for things such as life sentences? How about the death penalty for people who have multiple abortions? Would you regard those people as serial killers? Would an aborted foetus be entitled to justice the same way a fully grown person would?

Look forward to your comments.

[CatherineM]

I believe in protecting life from conception to natural death, so I obviously don't want to see them face the death penalty. I think that the women are victims just as prostitutes are victims. I would like to see them treated as such, and given the support they are going to need. Abortionists are a different matter. I have no problem with the idea of them doing serious jail time. Most prisons could use an in house doctor.

[Didacus]

The doctors and those assisting in performing the abortion:

Life sentence




The women being subjected to abortions:

Guilty of murder, sentence to be determined by the judge when evaluating all factors and circumstances.

1 year to life in prison (imagine a woman having her 10th abortion? for instance)





Anyone aiding or encouraging blatently or insistently in favor of a woman obtaining an abortion:

Guilty of accesory to murder

Pending the severity, prison term or fines may be given.

[CatherineM]

That's a good point about women having multiple abortions. I have to remind myself that there are women who have more than one. My mind has trouble imaging having one, so having more than one didn't even occur to me. After the first one, treated like a victim, but from #2 on, same as the abortionists. I also agree those aiding should go for conspiracy to commit murder.

[dairygirl4u2c]

a tough hypothetical to me would be, "if you make abortion illegal, women will go to jail for life andor the death penalty"
all that stuff i said about how prochoice arguments are not baseless, makes me think maybe it should be legal if it's an either or situation. i'm not sure. there's things that have to be weighted, and reasonably disputed human life might be worth less than essentially a life wasted in a jail cell.
but there's arguments to be made the other way.

at any rate, even before roe, and probably now, most would not want them to be convicted the same as a first degree murderer, so.

and while a few states might, they are in the far minority.

so i wouldn't be opposed to making it illegal. pros outweight cons

[bonkers]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1724060' date='Dec 10 2008, 01:45 PM']I believe in protecting life from conception to natural death, so I obviously don't want to see them face the death penalty. I think that the women are victims just as prostitutes are victims. I would like to see them treated as such, and given the support they are going to need. Abortionists are a different matter. I have no problem with the idea of them doing serious jail time. Most prisons could use an in house doctor.[/quote]

Surely the woman who [i]chooses[/i] to have an abortion (i.e. murder a child) is as culpable as those who perform it? Women in some circumstances may be victims (i.e. rape), but what about the woman who has casual se.x, gets pregnant and decides to terminate the life due to inconvenience? Is she a victim too, and in what context?

[bonkers]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1724099' date='Dec 10 2008, 02:15 PM']The doctors and those assisting in performing the abortion:

Life sentence




The women being subjected to abortions:

Guilty of murder, sentence to be determined by the judge when evaluating all factors and circumstances.

1 year to life in prison (imagine a woman having her 10th abortion? for instance)





Anyone aiding or encouraging blatently or insistently in favor of a woman obtaining an abortion:

Guilty of accesory to murder

Pending the severity, prison term or fines may be given.[/quote]

Is the majority pov of Catholics?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725111' date='Dec 10 2008, 09:33 PM']Surely the woman who [i]chooses[/i] to have an abortion (i.e. murder a child) is as culpable as those who perform it? Women in some circumstances may be victims (i.e. rape), but what about the woman who has casual se.x, gets pregnant and decides to terminate the life due to inconvenience? Is she a victim too, and in what context?[/quote]

A victim when feeling forced into an abortion by parents, boyfriend, husband, or social workers. A victim for believing the PC line that it is just a bit of tissue. A victim when respected doctors and/or nurses tell her the procedure in no big deal, and she won't have any lasting effects from it.

[exquisitebones]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1725159' date='Dec 10 2008, 09:16 PM']A victim when feeling forced into an abortion by parents, boyfriend, husband, or social workers. A victim for believing the PC line that it is just a bit of tissue. A victim when respected doctors and/or nurses tell her the procedure in no big deal, and she won't have any lasting effects from it.[/quote]


Sadly, there is a large space for misuse here.
If you know that women who are victims get off with lighter sentances, then of course, you would say "I was forced into it"
So, there would be no easy way to prove it.


other than that I agree with you.

[bonkers]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1725159' date='Dec 10 2008, 11:16 PM']A victim when feeling forced into an abortion by parents, boyfriend, husband, or social workers. A victim for believing the PC line that it is just a bit of tissue. A victim when respected doctors and/or nurses tell her the procedure in no big deal, and she won't have any lasting effects from it.[/quote]

So are doctors/nurses/parents victims too for believing these things?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725213' date='Dec 10 2008, 11:10 PM']So are doctors/nurses/parents victims too for believing these things?[/quote]

No, abortionists are in it for the money. They know what really happens. Parents are always responsible for the well being of their kids. If they don't know, they should have.

[bonkers]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1725215' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:15 AM']No, abortionists are in it for the money. They know what really happens. Parents are always responsible for the well being of their kids. If they don't know, they should have.[/quote]

Wow, you really think abortionists believe they are committing murder? Are women really too weak, ignorant and stupid to be held accountable for their own choices? Most women who've had abortions will tell you they understood both sides of the debate, made their choice and don't suffer any regret from it.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725223' date='Dec 10 2008, 11:30 PM']Wow, you really think abortionists believe they are committing murder? Are women really too weak, ignorant and stupid to be held accountable for their own choices? Most women who've had abortions will tell you they understood both sides of the debate, made their choice and don't suffer any regret from it.[/quote]

I believe that most people have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. Roe vs. Wade has been in place so long, that most women of child bearing age can not remember a time before it was decided. Doctors, however, have no excuse. Doctors who place babies born alive during an abortion near a window so they will die quicker, certainly know better than to say it isn't murder. One of my older brothers is an internist who specializes in medical issues that pregnant women can face, like gestational diabetes, or high blood pressure. Many of them end up having pre-mature babies.

He told me once that the only difference in the babies his patients are having and a large percentage of aborted babies is that his babies actually have a real doctor taking care of them trying to save their lives instead of trying to kill them. He told me the only person in his graduating class who became an abortionist was the class drunk who couldn't get privileges in any hospital.

[bonkers]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1725232' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:58 AM']I believe that most people have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. Roe vs. Wade has been in place so long, that most women of child bearing age can not remember a time before it was decided. Doctors, however, have no excuse. Doctors who place babies born alive during an abortion near a window so they will die quicker, certainly know better than to say it isn't murder. One of my older brothers is an internist who specializes in medical issues that pregnant women can face, like gestational diabetes, or high blood pressure. Many of them end up having pre-mature babies.

He told me once that the only difference in the babies his patients are having and a large percentage of aborted babies is that his babies actually have a real doctor taking care of them trying to save their lives instead of trying to kill them. He told me the only person in his graduating class who became an abortionist was the class drunk who couldn't get privileges in any hospital.[/quote]

Abortions were happening well prior to Roe v Wade. Many women do not understand the nature of the court case, if they do, they are in a safe position to decide whether to have an abortion. If they do not, they couldn't have possibly been brainwashed by something they are not well informed of. But I get your point, it's a cultural thing, society just accepts it because it's too complex and sensitive issue to oppose. But surely any young woman, considering an abortion, requires a thorough examination of conscience before going ahead with one? The point it, most women have abortion arrive at their decision through speaking to their partners, family and doctors and determining for themselves whether it is right or wrong to proceed. Some people can't bring themselves to go ahead with it, others don't have a problem. But it's a choice, and it's the woman's alone and therefore she is alone accountable for it.

Might I also point out there's significant public, government and social pressure for abortions to be performed, and a significant number of women demanding them, so there are pressures on doctors too. I can't imagine too many young children growing up wanting to be abortionists, but as long as it's legal someone has to do it, which is why I think it's raw you choose to label those who are merely performing their jobs as murderers.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725256' date='Dec 11 2008, 03:19 AM']Abortions were happening well prior to Roe v Wade. Many women do not understand the nature of the court case, if they do, they are in a safe position to decide whether to have an abortion. If they do not, they couldn't have possibly been brainwashed by something they are not well informed of. But I get your point, it's a cultural thing, society just accepts it because it's too complex and sensitive issue to oppose. But surely any young woman, considering an abortion, requires a thorough examination of conscience before going ahead with one? The point it, most women have abortion arrive at their decision through speaking to their partners, family and doctors and determining for themselves whether it is right or wrong to proceed. Some people can't bring themselves to go ahead with it, others don't have a problem. But it's a choice, and it's the woman's alone and therefore she is alone accountable for it.

Might I also point out there's significant public, government and social pressure for abortions to be performed, and a significant number of women demanding them, so there are pressures on doctors too. I can't imagine too many young children growing up wanting to be abortionists, but as long as it's legal someone has to do it, which is why I think it's raw you choose to label those who are merely performing their jobs as murderers.[/quote]

Wow, I'm not sure how to debate this issue with someone who doesn't see an abortionist as a murderer. You do understand what an abortion is, and how the procedure is done?

Canon 1398 of the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law reads: “A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.” The word “actually” indicates that the abortion must have been successful for the penalty to occur; the mere intent to have an abortion is not sufficient.

Canon 1329 specifies that accomplices to an act that triggers a latae sententiae excommunication are also subject to the same penalty if “without their assistance, the [b]crime[/b] would not have been committed.” In my Canon Law class we were taught that accomplices included the doctor and nurses who perform the procedure, as well as friends or family (such as the husband or boyfriend) who cooperate in a direct fashion, such as paying for the abortion or driving to the clinic.

Canon 1323, however, stipulates that no one can be excommunicated who:

-Has not turned 17;
-Was, without fault, ignorant of violating the law;
-Acted under physical force, or under a chance occurrence that could not be foreseen or avoided;
-Acted under compulsion of grave fear;
-Lacked the use of reason.