Heaven, Hell, And Us

[HisChildForever]

There has been some debate amongst certain members (I will not name names so as not to put anyone on the spot) that no soul is going to Hell and that it is not against Church teaching to think this way.

After a few replies back and forth I have realized that there is no misunderstanding here. Despite my attempts to correct the situation, and informing those involved that this is heresy, I feel like my efforts have fallen on deaf ears. That is why I have decided to open up this debate thread. I believe it will get more activity than the forum where this all started (Transmundane).

I am basically asking for those who believe in the true teaching of Holy Mother Church to provide information regarding the afterlife (Heaven, Hell, Purgatory) from Scripture, the Catechism, the Saints, the Church Fathers, etc. to further educate and help those who are severely misguided. For those who do [i]not[/i] believe in this Church teaching, I am curious to hear your "defense" against this specific section found in the Catechism:

[quote]1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/quote]

Edited December 7, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Sparky]

Nice post, HCF.

It's really getting annoying listening to all ds's talk it up about not being worried about hell. [b]HELL'S REAL!!![/b]. Sorry if it scares the kids, but that's the truth of it.

[Sparky]

Oh, sorry. missed the part about giving scripture and stuff. will have to look some of that up again.

[HisChildForever]

Thank you for your reply. I hope to get a lot of posts.

I do not understand how a professed Catholic can "believe" that no souls are in Hell. It is a fundamental root of our faith. One of the most obvious questions is - If there is no fear of us going to Hell, then why differentiate between motal and venial sin; keeping this in mind, why bother with Confession as a Sacrament? Other questions include: If Jesus did not die for our salvation - assuming our salvation is already promised seeing as supposedly no one goes to Hell - then why did He die? The result of "no souls go to Hell" are these open-ended questions which need to be "re-answered" and thus this ideology encourages a heretical theology. It is literally impossible for a faithful Catholic to deny this core teaching.

It is so incredibly important for us to believe in Hell and the reality of it - not only because of the questions I mentioned - but because it keeps us on our toes. It makes us pray harder and strive to be better.

[XIX]

Fear of Hell is a good thing. It can be overused--our primary focus should be Heaven, not avoiding Hell. But avoiding Hell is big.

You're probably better off thinking too much about Hell, than not thinking about Hell enough.

[bonkers]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1721266' date='Dec 6 2008, 11:42 PM']no soul is going to Hell and that it is not against Church teaching to think this way.[/quote]

Phew

[bonkers]

How about hell and babies? Some church fathers taught all unbaptised babies will go to hell. Knowing the god in the old testament, it's not that hard to believe god would do such a thing. What is the current church teaching on this one? There is no limbo, and nothing
impure (such as an unbaptised baby or foetus) can get into heaven.

Sorry Maggie in xix avatar made me think of babies for some reason.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1721313' date='Dec 7 2008, 12:48 AM']How about hell and babies? Some church fathers taught all unbaptised babies will go to hell. Knowing the god in the old testament, it's not that hard to believe god would do such a thing. What is the current church teaching on this one? There is no limbo, and nothing
impure (such as an unbaptised baby or foetus) can get into heaven.

Sorry Maggie in xix avatar made me think of babies for some reason.[/quote]

Read this: [url="http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2028721620070420"]http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2028721620070420[/url]

[puellapaschalis]

It was my understanding that we are required to believe ("required to believe" being understood in the right way, that is, the Pope says jump and we say how high, all waving "Benedetto" banners at the same time) that Hell exists, but that we should not presume to know whether anyone's actually there (except perhaps Old Nick and the fallen angels, as no repentance is possible for their sin).

I suppose you could take a statistical look at things and say that it is highly probable that there is/will be at least one human soul suffering there. If we look at how people die then we could certainly say that it seemed that Person X died in mortal sin. But we cannot know any of that for certain; the only person one can speak about with that kind of certainty is oneself. To me it's always seemed that I should worry about what would happen to me were I to pass on this evening, or tomorrow, or next week...and trying to make sure I'm doing my best to end up in the right place leaves me with little time to worry about the companions I might have were I to choose the place whose door handle "is on the inside".

[HisChildForever]

I agree that we can not presume Person X or Person Y are in Hell, and we are not called to judge. But the Church makes it explicitly clear that people are in Hell, re: exerpt I posted.

[dairygirl4u2c]

just because it's in the catechism doesn't mean it's final. if the way catholics treat it and i understand it to be correct.

for example, the current catechism says the death penalty should be almost nonexistant, but catholics want it to be used liberally. and, the old catechism said limbo was real, and now it's next to fallen to the way side.
the ultimate source is what the popes have said, and said definitely, intending to teach the church.

with that said, jesus was pretty firm about it. with that said, the popes have almost surely been firm and intended to teach it.

but with that said, there have been saints who have questioned the existance of hell. i don't know if they refused to beleive it or not. etc or if they in fact did not. we don't know their state of understanding etc though.

as said, on should never presume X is in hell. a lot of KKK folks, i think are just confused. there's a lot of confusion in the world. the only person i might ever presume is myself, cause i know my intentions. you can only be accountable for what you know or should know is wrong.

the bigger question in my mind, not to hijack, is what is hell like etc. i tend to think it's a place where people go, who want to be there, or may be forced to if they have any capacity of causing taint to the good. it's more a chioce. this doesn't sit well with the traditional notion that God puts you there, per se. (other than he puts you there by the inherent nature of the situation he ccreated if you can choose to be there)

Edited December 7, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='XIX' post='1721297' date='Dec 7 2008, 01:26 AM']Fear of Hell is a good thing. It can be overused--our primary focus should be Heaven, not avoiding Hell. But avoiding Hell is big.

You're probably better off thinking too much about Hell, than not thinking about Hell enough.[/quote]

yes.
it's like the difference between perfect and imperfect contriction. fear v. love being the basis for your repentance. both work though when it comes down to it. love is better.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/quote]


What you quoted here states:
1. Hell exists.
2. It is eternal.
3. After death, those who die in a state of moral sin descend into hell.
4. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.

[u]Nowhere[/u] in the Catechism does it say that Hell is not empty. Nowhere does it say how full or empty Hell is.

It is contrary to Church teaching to say that we [u]know[/u] Hell is empty or that it does not exist. It is contrary to Church teaching to say that we cannot go to Hell. It is NOT contrary to Church teaching to say that Hell [u]may[/u] be empty, and to hope and pray that it is empty.

It goes against the vast majority of private revelation to the Saints and certainly it goes against the looks of things. I personally think Hell has people in it. But it is not a dogma or a doctrine of the Church.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1721562' date='Dec 7 2008, 11:39 AM']just because it's in the catechism doesn't mean it's final. if the way catholics treat it and i understand it to be correct.

for example, the current catechism says the death penalty should be almost nonexistant, but catholics want it to be used liberally.[/quote]

Not necessarily liberally. There is a good discussion going on in Politics that I suggest you check out (if you have yet to do so).

[quote]and, the old catechism said limbo was real, and now it's next to fallen to the way side.[/quote]

Can you provide a source where the old Catechism said this? From the link I posted earlier, here are some snippets:

"The verdict that limbo could now rest in peace had been expected for years. The document was seen as most likely the final word since [b]limbo was never part of Church doctrine[/b], even though it was taught to Catholics well into the 20th century."

"In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was [b]'only a theological hypothesis'[/b] and [b]'never a defined truth of faith'[/b]."

"In the Divine Comedy, Dante placed virtuous pagans and great classical philosophers, including Plato and Socrates, in limbo. The Catholic Church's official catechism, issued in 1992 after decades of work, [b]dropped the mention of limbo[/b]."

Limbo was mentioned in the older versions of the Catechism but never defined as absolute doctrine.

[quote]the ultimate source is what the popes have said, and said definitely, intending to teach the church.[/quote]

Catechism.

[quote]but with that said, there have been saints who have questioned the existance of hell. i don't know if they refused to beleive it or not. etc or if they in fact did not. we don't know their state of understanding etc though.[/quote]

I would be interested to read up on this. Saints are individuals who led holy lives in true conformity with the Church (and thus Christ). And that is an understatement. I cannot imagine a Saint denying the existence of Hell.

[quote]as said, on should never presume X is in hell. a lot of KKK folks, i think are just confused. there's a lot of confusion in the world. the only person i might ever presume is myself, cause i know my intentions. you can only be accountable for what you know or should know is wrong.[/quote]

Right. We can't just go around assuming who is and who is not in Hell, but at the same time, we have to accept the fact that people do go there (and are there now).

[quote]the bigger question in my mind, not to hijack, is what is hell like etc. i tend to think it's a place where people go, who want to be there, or may be forced to if they have any capacity of causing taint to the good. it's more a chioce. this doesn't sit well with the traditional notion that God puts you there, per se. (other than he puts you there by the inherent nature of the situation he ccreated if you can choose to be there)[/quote]

I agree that Hell is a choice, although in reality no one sits down and says "Okay, I have decided to go to Hell!" But rejecting Christ and pursuing one's selfish pleasures in life [b]is[/b] choosing one path over the other.

In reality I believe that Hell is a place absolutely empty of God's presence and the souls have this knowledge [b]plus[/b] the knowledge that they will never feel His presence ever again (as we get a "taste" of it here on earth) and this is what causes the immense suffering. Scriptures presents us with firey passages because as humans it's difficult for us to grasp this concept (of a place void of God) and it's easier to associate Hell with tremendous physical pain.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1721712' date='Dec 7 2008, 03:54 PM']we have to accept the fact that people do go there (and are there now).[/quote]


This just isn't true.

We have to accept the fact that Hell exists.
We have to accept the fact that it is eternal.
We have to accept the fact that yes, it is possible for people to go to Hell.
We have to accept the fact that people who die in mortal sin go there.
We have to accept the fact that we cannot know that Hell is empty.



There is no dogma or doctrine of the Church teaching the population demographics of Hell.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Lilllabettt