Special Interest Site

[rosamundi]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1722200' date='Dec 8 2008, 07:42 AM']Saints who practiced the form of corporal mortification that is the cilice/discipline are many: Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Padre Pio, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of the Andes, St. Francis de Sales, St. Veronica Guliani, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Gemma Galgani, St. John of the Cross, Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity, Bl. Catherine Emmerich, St. Margaret Mary, St. John Vianney, St. Josemaria Escriva, St. Jerome, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Thomas More, Saint Dominic Loricatus, etc. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.[/quote]

Yes, but there is a difference between being a member of an Order, who practices corporeal disciplines under the direction of a spiritual advisor who knows you very well, and buying a cilice or a whip off the internet and using it with no direction or advice from someone older and wiser. I would be concerned about people seeing that link, and, with the best of intentions, buying something off the site and doing themselves physical or spiritual harm.

My advice (and that, along with £2.00, will get you a medium cappucino at Starbucks), is to avoid these sorts of physical penances until a religious superior or spiritual advisor says they are OK. Buying something like this of the internet and using it with no clear direction on how to use it is not a good idea.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='rosamundi' post='1722320' date='Dec 8 2008, 03:45 PM']Yes, but there is a difference between being a member of an Order, who practices corporeal disciplines under the direction of a spiritual advisor who knows you very well, and buying a cilice or a whip off the internet and using it with no direction or advice from someone older and wiser. I would be concerned about people seeing that link, and, with the best of intentions, buying something off the site and doing themselves physical or spiritual harm.

My advice (and that, along with £2.00, will get you a medium cappucino at Starbucks), is to avoid these sorts of physical penances until a religious superior or spiritual advisor says they are OK. Buying something like this of the internet and using it with no clear direction on how to use it is not a good idea.[/quote]

Amen.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='rosamundi' post='1722320' date='Dec 8 2008, 10:45 AM']Yes, but there is a difference between being a member of an Order, who practices corporeal disciplines under the direction of a spiritual advisor who knows you very well, and buying a cilice or a whip off the internet and using it with no direction or advice from someone older and wiser. I would be concerned about people seeing that link, and, with the best of intentions, buying something off the site and doing themselves physical or spiritual harm.

My advice (and that, along with £2.00, will get you a medium cappucino at Starbucks), is to avoid these sorts of physical penances until a religious superior or spiritual advisor says they are OK. Buying something like this of the internet and using it with no clear direction on how to use it is not a good idea.[/quote]

With all things prudence and talking with one's spiritual director. I mentioned that at the end of my post. No one should do any of these things without consulting their spiritual director. The thing that is good to know about the website is that if someone does get permission to do these things (which is rare) then they would know where to get them. You are absolutely right.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721116' date='Dec 6 2008, 07:06 PM']It has long been abandoned by the Church, and it's frowned upon.[/quote]nope, not at all.

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721116' date='Dec 6 2008, 07:06 PM']Those who wish to practice it should be of a SOUND mind and body and have the go-ahead from not only their priest or spiritual advisor, but their doctor as well.[/quote]yes, as long as your priest/spiritual advisor are practicing Catholics (in that they practice what the Church teaches).
[quote name='moon_child_anne' post='1721187' date='Dec 6 2008, 08:34 PM']Has anyone else ever wanted to wear one of these to church?

Peace,
Anne[/quote]
off topic, but i just purchased a beautiful one from [url="http://garlandsofgrace.com"]Garlands of Grace[/url] for $10.99.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1722293' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:14 AM']I guess I just don't understand corporal mortification.[/quote]corporal mortification can also mean taking only cold showers, wearing of hair shirts, drinking coffee without sugar, skipping seconds or desserts, not eating between meals, etc.

[url="http://www.speroforum.com/wiki/default.aspx/SperoWiki/CorporalMortification.html"]here is a good article[/url]:
[quote]Jesus invites all Christians to help him carry the cross. It's true that for most of us there are plenty of crosses in our daily lives, and we don't need to invent new ones. Nevertheless, [b]it's a good and longstanding Christian practice to deny ourselves some simple pleasures in order to fortify our will, remind ourselves of the passing nature of this world's goods, unite ourselves to the sufferings of the Lord in his passion, and to offer atonement for our sins.[/b] This is the purpose of the ancient practice of fasting and abstaining from meat, for example.

It's interesting that many people understand the need to deny themselves sweets and excessive amounts of food and to get up early in the morning, regardless of the weather, to run miles and miles, enduring great physical pain. They will submit to painful operations and medical treatments, even to the point of injecting poisons (chemotherapy, botox) into their bodies. They do all these things to preserve or restore their physical health, or even just their beauty. Yet they recoil at the idea of doing things that cause far less physical discomfort if the motivation is spiritual in nature. These are the people who don't understand and are horrified at the practice of corporal mortification.

It seems to me that the controversy over the use of these means of mortification arises from the fact that they're intended to fortify the soul rather than the body, and they don't involve the use of Spandex® or a membership in a health spa. However, these are traditional means used by many saints in the church's history, and [b]even if they aren't used quite so much today, that doesn't diminish their value.[/b][/quote]
it also says:
[quote]It's true that these types of corporal mortifications are not for everyone. In Opus Dei, only numeraries and associates use them and [b]they must ask permission to do so more frequently than prescribed.[/b] It is my understanding that supernumeraries are not allowed to use them.[/quote]
of which i want to highlight in particular.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh#Christianity"]wikipedia[/url] has an entry on this (of course, with all things wikipedia, double check the sources.) it has some good quotes from saints, and popes, on mortification.

Pope John Paul II, of course, wrote greatly of the salvific meaning of suffering in his encyclical [u][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html"]Salvifici Doloris[/url][/u].

St. Paul wrote also on 'chastisement' of the body.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
also in the [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#2015"]Catechism[/url]:
[quote]IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

[b]2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:[/b]

[quote]He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69[/quote]

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71[/quote]

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
i would just like to add that corporal mortification has always had a place in the Church and always will. there are small corporal mortifications that everyone can do (like those i listed: cold showers, not eating seconds, etc.). the larger/deeper the mortification (use of the cilice or discipline) [b]should always be taken under advisement of a spiritual director[/b], though. but do not dismiss corporal mortification as a 'product of the past that the Church does not believe in anymore'. this could not be further from the truth. God bless.

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1722619' date='Dec 8 2008, 04:23 PM']+J.M.J.+
i would just like to add that corporal mortification has always had a place in the Church and always will. there are small corporal mortifications that everyone can do (like those i listed: cold showers, not eating seconds, etc.). the larger/deeper the mortification (use of the cilice or discipline) [b]should always be taken under advisement of a spiritual director[/b], though. but do not dismiss corporal mortification as a 'product of the past that the Church does not believe in anymore'. this could not be further from the truth. God bless.[/quote]

I think you misunderstood me. I believe in fasting and abstinence around Easter and Lent and such, but I do not refer to these things as corporal mortification. When I think of the word "Corporal", the "corporal punishment" thing pops into my head and I immediately think of a child getting the paddle at school, like the olden days. LOL. That's why, I think of "corporal" mortification as physically injuring oneself. Forgive me if that is not entirely true, as you have said. I think of passing on seconds, no sugar in coffee, cold showers, etc. as "penances," which I think are the same thing.

I just came back to the Church in Full Communion last year, so I am trying to immerse myself in the Church history. This is just not a part I have read up on yet. Plus, even though I was baptized, had First Communion, confirmed, had CCD classes and such, I have not learned as much as I would have liked to. There was a lot that was not included because of lack of time, or the curriculum wasn't specific.

God bless!

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1722611' date='Dec 8 2008, 11:11 PM']off topic, but i just purchased a beautiful one from [url="http://garlandsofgrace.com"]Garlands of Grace[/url] for $10.99.[/quote]

Ok, when I first saw this I thought, "Lil Red bought one of those chains?!"

[Thomist-in-Training]

There's a book from the fifties called "My Beloved" by a Carmelite nun, sort of the same as "A Right to be Merry" but a little more personal and not as famous, and the author mentions matter-of-factly that the nuns take the discipline simultaneously in choir with the lights off (maybe once a week, or a few times a month). I was a little surprised to realize it was all together. I think that's when St Therese would have perhaps? as referred to in the quote from bio above. But anyways it's not "long outdated and discarded" and as mentioned various communities have the same practice today.

[truthfinder]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1726622' date='Dec 12 2008, 01:50 PM']There's a book from the fifties called "My Beloved" by a Carmelite nun, sort of the same as "A Right to be Merry" but a little more personal and not as famous, and the author mentions matter-of-factly that the nuns take the discipline simultaneously in choir with the lights off (maybe once a week, or a few times a month). I was a little surprised to realize it was all together. I think that's when St Therese would have perhaps? as referred to in the quote from bio above. But anyways it's not "long outdated and discarded" and as mentioned various communities have the same practice today.[/quote]


I also remember reading a book about Padre Pio. The young monks would take the discipline in the same manner. Except, I think they were encouraged to do about as much violence to themselves as possible. The Capuchins he belonged to I believe did this everynight and then the monks were told that they must sleep on their stomachs.
I've also read that St. Thomas Moore wore a cilice ( a lay, married man to boot) and one day while in court it fell, I guess/assume, in which case he smiled because he felt it was a gift from God to be given a slightly larger penance.
God Bless

Edited December 13, 2008 by truthfinder