Special Interest Site

[RosaMystica]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721447' date='Dec 7 2008, 05:08 AM']Valparaiso practices mortification? I did not know this and I'm glad you brought it up. I think I can safely cross them off my list. I have no desire to beat myself intentionally. I am discerning Carmelite orders too, so if you know of any other orders who do this, please share, but perhaps by private message. I don't want to influence the decisions of others. Thanks for explaining that people still do it. I thought it was a dead practice. [/quote]

I wouldn't say that they're "beating" themselves. The short and thin leather ropes I heard don't hurt very much (they don't make you bleed either) and they're used to remind oneself of the sufferings of Christ along with penance and mortification. A superior from a different Carmelite monastery told me that her monastery used to have that practice but that the Valparaiso monastery still maintains it. I don't think the leather ropes hurt as much as it does to kneel on the ground and kiss the floor. I feel like that humility would hurt me much more than short leather ropes would, but both I think are good for the soul (when they are done in the right circumstances with the correct supervision either by a spiritual director or superior<- I feel like I always have to put this in here now :-P) I also heard somehwere on one of the threads from this forum that the Passionists carry out certain physical mortifications but I'm not sure what they are or which monasteries do them.

Saying that you thought it was a dead practice made me remember a time where someone asked me, "Really? Latin Mass? They still have that?! I thought that was dead!"
I'm not making fun of you or anything, it's just that what you said reminded me of this.

Edited December 7, 2008 by RosaMystica

[RosaMystica]

This is the rope thing I'm talking about. This is actually from the same website that Laudem posted. The ropes that my cousin showed me, Sr. Mary Teresa, MC, looked shorter than this and didn't feel extremely rough but only a little rough.
[img]http://www.cilice.co.uk/images/dis%203.jpg[/img]

[Carmeliteheart726]

Thanks Mandy, for the insight. I just know that practice is not for me. I would rather mortify myself by doing acts of kindness and charity than taking a whip. I crossed the Passionists off a long time ago. I knew that some of them did the penance, but that's not really what made me cross it off. They just seem very peculiar to me. That thick black habit is penance enough! Anyway, it's interesting to learn about this stuff. I don't think Laudem posted the link because she wanted people to practice it or anything. I think she just probably came across it one day and thought, 'hmmm, that's interesting,' and wanted to share.

We do not understand why Laudem posted it here, but I don't think she intentionally meant to harm anyone. Personally, she's been most helpful in my own discernment, and I think she has the best intentions at heart. Remember, we are all human. We ALL make mistakes. I have learned to read these posts with a grain of salt since you can't actually see the other person's emotions or anything. Innocent until proven guilty, eh?

God bless!

Edited December 7, 2008 by Carmeliteheart726

[RosaMystica]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721453' date='Dec 7 2008, 05:43 AM']Anyway, it's interesting to learn about this stuff. I don't think Laudem posted the link because she wanted people to practice it or anything. I think she just probably came across it one day and thought, 'hmmm, that's interesting,' and wanted to share.

We do not understand why Laudem posted it here, but I don't think she intentionally meant to harm anyone. Personally, she's been most helpful in my own discernment, and I think she has the best intentions at heart. Remember, we are all human. We ALL make mistakes. I have learned to read these posts with a grain of salt since you can't actually see the other person's emotions or anything. Innocent until proven guilty, eh?

God bless![/quote]

I completely agree! And I've enjoyed talking with you about this and other discernment stuff!

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721454' date='Dec 7 2008, 04:49 AM']I completely agree! And I've enjoyed talking with you about this and other discernment stuff! [/quote]

And I enjoyed talking with you! I'm going to miss seeing your cheerful posts here. But I hope to meet you in heaven one day! Praying for you!

[puellapaschalis]

I would ask those who object to the first post here to please report it using the "Report" button in the bottom left corner of the post. I did so yesterday, but I know the mods are busy people. If many more people do so then perhaps it will gain more attention.

The question of self-mortification, under the correct circumstances and [i]when it is the apt time in one's life to do so[/i], is I believe a valid topic for discussion (although in my opinion it would only come up after some years in religion or a period of some years of continued mental prayer, lectio and closer union with God). But to simply post the link with no comment [i]at all[/i] is something I consider irresponsible and inappropriate.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1721460' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:25 AM']I would ask those who object to the first post here to please report it using the "Report" button in the bottom left corner of the post. I did so yesterday, but I know the mods are busy people. If many more people do so then perhaps it will gain more attention.

The question of self-mortification, under the correct circumstances and [i]when it is the apt time in one's life to do so[/i], is I believe a valid topic for discussion (although in my opinion it would only come up after some years in religion or a period of some years of continued mental prayer, lectio and closer union with God). But to simply post the link with no comment [i]at all[/i] is something I consider irresponsible and inappropriate.[/quote]

I am moving this topic to the Debate Table. I think that that is a more appropriate venue to discuss the topic of self-mortification than is the Vocation Station (with all the various concerns that have been voiced, I do not think that the subject should be "banned" but I do think that the VS is not the place for it).

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1721549' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:18 PM']I am moving this topic to the Debate Table. I think that that is a more appropriate venue to discuss the topic of self-mortification than is the Vocation Station (with all the various concerns that have been voiced, I do not think that the subject should be "banned" but I do think that the VS is not the place for it).[/quote]

Thank you, your moderatorness, for this wise decision

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1721551' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:19 PM']Thank you, your moderatorness, for this wise decision [/quote]

Idem ditto

[jkaands]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1721457' date='Dec 7 2008, 03:54 AM']And I enjoyed talking with you! I'm going to miss seeing your cheerful posts here. But I hope to meet you in heaven one day! Praying for you![/quote]

CarmHeart, I am very glad to read about your well-ground suspicion of extreme penances, particularly inview of your interest in Carmelite and Franciscan vocations.

Therese performed the ritual out of obedience, with a smile. She herself practiced and founded a school of practicing constant small mortifications such as cheerfulness, tact and self-forgetfulness in the face of some of the mentally disturbed people in her Carmel, which she continually tried to help. This practice developed her heroic courage in the face of her developing and final illness, which was not recognized until far advanced.

I read about some Passionist nuns in a current book and had to wonder about some of their practices, such as not eating fresh fruit and vegetables in season.

We all have plenty of opportunities every day to practice mortifications, without going to such extremes which can lead to illness and pride.

[jkaands]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721444' date='Dec 7 2008, 02:37 AM']I think a few of these comments have been a bit harsh on Laudem, namely Graciela's comment. And I would also like to mention that this practice of mortification isn't long gone within the Church and this can be easily seen within the Opus Dei order. I'm sure that all of us know that Laudem is discerning the Carmelite order and with traditional Carmels at that. I'm sure we all have heard of the very traditional Valparaiso Carmel and the nuns within that Carmel also have small leather whips to whip themselves for mortification and penance. Within the Missionaries of Charity contemplatives, the professed Sisters also have small leather whips to whip themselves and my cousin, who is a Missionary of Charity contemplative, told me that they have to do a certain number of whips. I think a few Sisters also wear ropes around their waistes. I also have a professor who is a priest who wears a hair shirt. I'm not saying that this is something for everyone because I don't mean that at all. Individuals should only carry out these types of penances only with the permission of their spiritual directors and/or superiors. I also do think that there should have been a more obvious disclaimer as stated above.

And for those impressionable young people on this forum who might think that this type of penance and mortification is necessary for religious life or discernment, notice that I've only mentioned religious and priests who carry out these types of things, and again these things should only be done with the permission of a spiritual director and/or superior.

I'm also not sure what this website has anything to do with vocations and Laudem hasn't given a reason for putting this website on this forum, but some of those things on there were made by nuns and so maybe that community also uses them? There are still some orders that carry out these types of penances and mortifications, so maybe she wanted to draw attention to that? I'm not sure. Again, I do have to agree that there should have been a disclaimer above the link and an explanation as to why it was posted. Maybe we'll get the latter soon?[/quote]

Mandy, this is off-topic, but many many congrats and best wishes to you on your new adventure!

I am very, very glad that you have chosen your Chaldean community, that you have two other postulants with you and I hope that you all love it and persevere.

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1721853' date='Dec 7 2008, 06:24 PM']CarmHeart, I am very glad to read about your well-ground suspicion of extreme penances, particularly in view of your interest in Carmelite and Franciscan vocations.

Therese performed the ritual out of obedience, with a smile. She herself practiced and founded a school of practicing constant small mortifications such as cheerfulness, tact and self-forgetfulness in the face of some of the mentally disturbed people in her Carmel, which she continually tried to help. This practice developed her heroic courage in the face of her developing and final illness, which was not recognized until far advanced.

I read about some Passionist nuns in a current book and had to wonder about some of their practices, such as not eating fresh fruit and vegetables in season.

We all have plenty of opportunities every day to practice mortifications, without going to such extremes which can lead to illness and pride.[/quote]

Thank you, jkaands. St. Therese is my patron, and I hope she's watching over me and smiling. I love her "Little Way" and I try my best to practice it daily. Little works of kindness, compassion and mercy go a long way in this day and age when so many people have lost their heads and the right path. I see no reason for injuring myself physically when there are other ways to win the humility attributed to the great saints, St. Therese included. She motivates me to stop complaining about little things. She was sick and accepted her mortality with a heart full of love. I hope to model my life around hers, Jesus, and Mary's.

I don't really know much about the Passionist nuns other than what I've read on their websites, but I think some of them really take it to the extreme. Why can't you eat fresh fruit and vegetables? That doesn't make sense to me. I have heard of several orders, including Carmelites, practice mortification by excluding meat from their diet. This is an admirable practice as I used to be a vegetarian/vegan and I know how hard it is at first to give up meat. But you learn to incorporate more protein like beans and legumes to make up for it. Meat used to be very expensive, but even though the prices have dropped some, they continue the practice. Why? They saw it as unnecessary to eat meat unless they had a health concern. I wonder though, do they still eat fish? I know the Benedictines of Mary, Queen of the Apostles don't eat fish. I find their practice of fasting somehow intimidating. Call me selfish, but I can't go all day until the evening without something. I was wondering if they had collation during the day, but was astonished to find out that they have collation for dinner when they fast! That surprised me and I know that I wouldn't last long. There are certain practices that someone might find helpful if they do them safely, but I don't find fasting for long periods helpful. But that's just me....

I think the subject of physical mortification should be broached carefully. I can only think of people who practiced it in the past who suffered mental illness or physical illness from it.

God bless you!

Edited December 8, 2008 by Carmeliteheart726

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1721444' date='Dec 7 2008, 05:37 AM']I think a few of these comments have been a bit harsh on Laudem, namely Graciela's comment. And I would also like to mention that this practice of mortification isn't long gone within the Church and this can be easily seen within the Opus Dei order. I'm sure that all of us know that Laudem is discerning the Carmelite order and with traditional Carmels at that. I'm sure we all have heard of the very traditional Valparaiso Carmel and the nuns within that Carmel also have small leather whips to whip themselves for mortification and penance. Within the Missionaries of Charity contemplatives, the professed Sisters also have small leather whips to whip themselves and my cousin, who is a Missionary of Charity contemplative, told me that they have to do a certain number of whips. I think a few Sisters also wear ropes around their waistes. I also have a professor who is a priest who wears a hair shirt. I'm not saying that this is something for everyone because I don't mean that at all. Individuals should only carry out these types of penances only with the permission of their spiritual directors and/or superiors. I also do think that there should have been a more obvious disclaimer as stated above.

And for those impressionable young people on this forum who might think that this type of penance and mortification is necessary for religious life or discernment, notice that I've only mentioned religious and priests who carry out these types of things, and again these things should only be done with the permission of a spiritual director and/or superior.

I'm also not sure what this website has anything to do with vocations and Laudem hasn't given a reason for putting this website on this forum, but some of those things on there were made by nuns and so maybe that community also uses them? There are still some orders that carry out these types of penances and mortifications, so maybe she wanted to draw attention to that? I'm not sure. Again, I do have to agree that there should have been a disclaimer above the link and an explaination as to why it was posted. Maybe we'll get the latter soon?[/quote]

Very well put.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[b]"I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" I Cor. 9:27[/b]

But the faithful must also be encouraged to do[b] [u]outward acts of penance[/u], both to keep their bodies under the strict control of reason and faith, and to make amends for their own and other people's sins... [/b]St. Augustine issued the same insistent warning: "It is not enough for a man to change his ways for the better and to give up the practice of evil, unless by painful penance, sorrowing humility, the sacrifice of a contrite heart and the giving of alms he makes amends to God for all that he has done wrong." ...But besides bearing in a Christian spirit the inescapable annoyances and sufferings of this life, [b]the faithful ought also take the initiative in doing [u]voluntary acts of penance [/u]and offering them to God.... [/b]Since, therefore, Christ has suffered in the flesh," it is only fitting that we be "armed with the same intent." It is right, too, to seek example and inspiration from the great saints of the Church. Pure as they were, they inflicted such mortifications upon themselves as to leave us almost aghast with admiration. And as we contemplate their saintly heroism, [b]shall not we be moved by God's grace to impose on ourselves some [u]voluntary sufferings and deprivations[/u], [/b]we whose consciences are perhaps weighed down by so heavy a burden of guilt? - Pope John XXIII, [i]Paenitentiam Agere [/i] (this was written in 1962 not 1662)

Corporal Mortification is an aspect of ascetic spirituality, and there is nothing shameful about it.

There is a (while minor) group of communities that still practice this form of corporal mortification that are mentioned on PM often enough. This aspect of their life though is hardly mentioned, and it is because some people do not understand it or see the reason for it. Until this is known though they are praised up and down for how many vocations they are receiving and how traditional and good their life is. Then when this small very minor aspect of their life is mentioned (which was practiced by their founders who are saints) then they are insinuated as being bad.

Contrary to Hollywood and some of the opinions on this thread, the cilice [b]does not [/b]draw blood, nor does the instrument with the ropes on it. It only causes a slight discomfort, but hardly any great pain like what is being imagined on this thread.

An athlete gets up at the earliest hours of the day when it is still dark outside. He ties weights to his ankles. He goes up to the top of a mountain where it is difficult to breath and runs for training. No one says anything. "He has such will-power! He is really committed! He works really hard!"

The Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy raise their arms out in the air when they pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. This is about 5-10 minutes long, which can be [i]very[/i] irritating to the body. I know of other people who, for mortification, sleep on the floor or on boards. Others will take cold showers. St. Therese one time when it was freezing outside - while all the other sisters covered their hands in their habit - held her bare hands out in the cold for a good period (I believe all of recreation), refusing to allow herself to cover them. Some communities kneel always and hardly ever sit in a chair, and when they do it is a hard, straight-back chair. A group of Franciscans in Italy carry quiet large wooden crosses up a stairway every year at Lent. The little children of Fatima would not drink water on hot days and wore cords around their waists. St. Francis threw himself in a thorn bush. And St. Catherine of Siena threw herself into burning water. St. Gemma Galgaini threw herself in a well of ice-cold water. All of these things cause [i]much much[/i] more discomfort to the body then the cilice or not having fruit in it's season.

Saints who practiced the form of corporal mortification that is the cilice/discipline are many: Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Padre Pio, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of the Andes, St. Francis de Sales, St. Veronica Guliani, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Gemma Galgani, St. John of the Cross, Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity, Bl. Catherine Emmerich, St. Margaret Mary, St. John Vianney, St. Josemaria Escriva, St. Jerome, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Thomas More, Saint Dominic Loricatus, etc. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

When these things are mentioned on PM, St. Therese and her Little Way is appealed to. All the other saints and what they have said and done is overlooked. We just look to St. Therese, and then we overlook the truth that she used the discipline as well. One of her biographers wrote, that she "scourged herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes." The Little Way is full of corporal mortifications. One of the little things sometimes used to describe her "little way" is not having butter on your toast or whatever. It is a corporal mortification. Corporal mortification is part of ascetic spirituality. And the cilice and the discipline are hardly as glamorously painful as so many people wish to believe.

Our very own Lord voluntarily suffered whips and lashes which actually did cause pain to himself greatly and carried heavy beams which weighed tons and tons of pounds. He self-inflicted his body by fasting for 40 days and 40 nights to prepare for his ministry.

Prudence should always be practiced because there can be a sinful pride in it. The Spiritual Director should know of all penances, not just great ones because this pride can appear in all penances and not just that which is called "extraordinary" like the cilice.

[Carmeliteheart726]

Thank you for posting that. There are few things that we know about the saints. I did not know St. Therese whipped herself. It's not mentioned at all in "Story of a Soul." It's interesting that you should mention that there are some sisters who hold out their arms in prayer for extended periods. I know of a few orders that do this too:

Sisters of Reparation in Steubenville, OH
Poor Clare Colettine Nuns in Belleville, IL (I am considering this order)

I guess I just don't understand corporal mortification. It's not something I grew up around at all, and I guess I am fearful of it. The idea of whips and chains is intimidating to me, but the more I learn about these things, the more I understand. My fear slowly melts away. I think about doing little penances sometimes that can't be harmful. I've struggled with an addiction up until 3 weeks ago, but I still get temptations to go back to that sinful way. I've thought about wearing a rubber band around my wrist and snapping it everytime I get tempted. I've heard it helps, too.

Yes, I think you are correct about things we see in movies infiltrating our thoughts. When I thought of corporal mortification, to be honest, I was thinking of the brother in "The Da Vinci Code" who wore a scratchy habit, whipped himself with a clawed flagellum, and wrapped the cilice so tightly around his leg that it drew blood. I've even seen the pictures of the cilices on the website that was posted, and they have little claws, so I imagine they dig in somehow into the skin.

I know of some 1990 Carmels who practice mortification by sleeping on boards, in fact, I think Valaparaiso is one of them. Brooklyn might be too, but I am not sure. The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal sleep with their mattresses on the floor pointing towards a crucifix on the wall. I've seen the pictures, and I wondered if the Sisters of the Renewal do the same. I think that's a beautiful practice. I guess there are just more things that I am comfortable with, and some I am not.

I know I am selfish. I am perhaps one of the weakest people in God's service, but I hope I am on the path to sainthood, because that is what I am striving for. My addiction was forgiven in Confession and I received graces (I could feel them, too ) when I was in there. I have not done anything towards my addiction in 3 weeks and 2 days. Sure, I struggle. But I get past it with prayer.

I am making the Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary as described by St. Louis de Montfort and when I do, I am planning to wear a little iron or silver chain around my wrist to help remind me that I am all His. I am in His service, and Mary is my Mother. I can't wait!