Didacus Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 If the sin of presumption, that is the sin of 'pressuming you are going to heaven', is a mortal sin that may lead you to hell, then if someone would pressume they are going to hell, may that presumption lead their eternal souls to heaven? Would that presumption of going to hell be seen as a salvific presumption of sorts? The fear of hell is the beggining of wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 That sounds almost like a scrupulous conscience. I don't think it is supposed to work that way. The fear of hell might make you more likely to follow the right path, or it might make you feel like "you're going to hell anyway, so might as well, xyz." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 [quote name='Didacus' post='1719931' date='Dec 5 2008, 11:43 AM']If the sin of presumption, that is the sin of 'pressuming you are going to heaven', is a mortal sin that may lead you to hell, then if someone would pressume they are going to hell, may that presumption lead their eternal souls to heaven? Would that presumption of going to hell be seen as a salvific presumption of sorts? The fear of hell is the beggining of wisdom.[/quote] You are dead wrong on this. The counter sin to presumption is that of [i]despair[/i]: believing oneself to be damned or beyond salvation. Both presumption and despair are regarded as sins against the virtue of hope. Methinks you need to read your catechism:[quote]2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, [b]despair[/b] and presumption: [b]By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.[/b] 2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).[/quote] There is nothing salvific about despairing of one's salvation; it is diabolical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 That is a very good view of it Soc. thanks, I 'll have to reflect on this a little more. My statements of course, were a play on the meaning of presumption. But this is a typical objection that one may meet while trying to render to the ridiculous the beliefs held by Catholics. I believe CatM was alluring to despair but in a permissive way in her post. Co correct me if I'm wrong. What are your thoughts on 'Fear of hell is the beginning of wisdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I don't think I'd put it that way, "fear of hell," but I do believe that properly forming your conscience is the beginning of true wisdom, and you could make the argument that the fear of hell is a good reason to pursue forming your conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchfry Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I know I've been reading St. Catherina of Sienna, and she talks about the stages that soul goes through in relationship to God. First they are obedient out of fear of punishment (or fear of hell). Then they realize how much doing God's will benefits them - they grow in virtue, get more accomplished, feel good, enjoy the company of the Lord. Many never progress beyond this, but you are supposed to move into the state where you serve God as a son or a friend without any consolation for yourself. I know other saints, like Theresa of Avila, have expressed similar journeys. Basically, you start being good because you're afraid of hell - you begin your journey into Wisdom that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Didacus' post='1724115' date='Dec 10 2008, 02:22 PM']That is a very good view of it Soc. thanks, I 'll have to reflect on this a little more. My statements of course, were a play on the meaning of presumption. But this is a typical objection that one may meet while trying to render to the ridiculous the beliefs held by Catholics. I believe CatM was alluring to despair but in a permissive way in her post. Co correct me if I'm wrong. What are your thoughts on 'Fear of hell is the beginning of wisdom?[/quote] The correct Scripture quote is "Fear of [b]the Lord[/b] is the beginning of wisdom." (Proverbs 1:7) This means not just fear of hell but a deep reverence and respect for the Lord. Obviously, fear of God's justice (hell) can be a good start to a virtuous life, but that should lead to conversion, rather than despair of salvation, or presuming oneself damned. Virtue is the mean between the sins of presumption and despair - hoping in salvation, but not presuming it. Edited December 11, 2008 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 Did you know my face is beautiful enough to be worth $5000? This still makes me laugh! thanks for the input Soc, right on the money as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now