Abortion Not Seen Linked With Depression (msnbc)

[Paladin D]

[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28050494/"]Abortion not seen linked with depression[/url]
[b][i]Review of studies found no evidence of emotional harm after procedure[/b][/i]

[quote]WASHINGTON - No high-quality study done to date can document that having an abortion causes psychological distress, or a "post-abortion syndrome," and efforts to show it does occur appear to be politically motivated, U.S. researchers said on Thursday.

A team at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore reviewed 21 studies involving more than 150,000 women and found the high-quality studies showed no significant differences in long-term mental health between women who choose to abort a pregnancy and others.

"The best research does not support the existence of a 'post-abortion syndrome' similar to post-traumatic stress disorder," Dr. Robert Blum, who led the study published in the journal Contraception, said in a statement.[/quote]


I'm skeptical.



[b]EDIT:[/b] I posted this in the wrong forum, could a moderator move it to Open Mic please?

Edited December 4, 2008 by Paladin D

[dairygirl4u2c]

i know someone close who's had an abortion.

they were surely "depressed" in a general sense. "clinically depressed"? not really.

how many are clinically depressed after an abortion? good question.

how many are merely depressed? good question.

what's the line between the two? good question, but the better questions are showing a correlation andor causation between abortion and depression at least in some sense.

[Jesus_lol]

yeah i am sure some people are clinically depressed after many different events, but that doesnt mean those events necessarily caused the depression, or were the only cause, or that it would cause everyone else to be depressed.
people getting abortions(or have had them) frequently have a lot more on their mind than just the abortion to deal with(failed relationships, pressure, money woes) that can also cause periods of depression.

[Paddington]

I've also heard a rumor that women who abort have higher self-esteem than women who don't.

But, whatever the case, I'm a strong believer that some of the most worse off people in the world are very happy and consider themselves to be the stuff.

[Didacus]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718753' date='Dec 4 2008, 02:27 PM']i know someone close who's had an abortion.

they were surely "depressed" in a general sense. "clinically depressed"? not really.

how many are clinically depressed after an abortion? good question.

how many are merely depressed? good question.

what's the line between the two? good question, but the better questions are showing a correlation andor causation between abortion and depression at least in some sense.[/quote]

Psychology is a 'soft science' (aka, not even a science at all), and can be 'flexed' to say wahtever a person wants.

[Socrates]

As long as people are happy killing their babies, how can one object?

[quote name='Paddington' post='1718809' date='Dec 4 2008, 04:25 PM']I've also heard a rumor that women who abort have higher self-esteem than women who don't.[/quote]
And as we know, self-esteem is the be-all and end-all of human existence.

[exquisitebones]

I dont know how it effects all people but my friend had one a few years back and she STILL hates herself for it, and cries often and thinks she is not worthy of Gods love because of it. its terrible.

on the other hand, I had an old friend that had one, and was SO excited about it (SICK), and still to this day doesnt feel anything about it.


I think it affects people differently.

[bonkers]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718753' date='Dec 4 2008, 02:27 PM']i know someone close who's had an abortion.

they were surely "depressed" in a general sense. "clinically depressed"? not really.

how many are clinically depressed after an abortion? good question.

how many are merely depressed? good question.

what's the line between the two? good question, but the better questions are showing a correlation andor causation between abortion and depression at least in some sense.[/quote]

It's a matter of perspective. If the woman who has been told by having an abortion she is killing her child, she is more likely to suffer guilt and depression than a woman who does not believe she is doing anything wrong.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1725233' date='Dec 11 2008, 03:00 AM']It's a matter of perspective. If the woman who has been told by having an abortion she is killing her child, she is more likely to suffer guilt and depression than a woman who does not believe she is doing anything wrong.[/quote]


Gleech, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what women are "told." Some women grow up being told they won't amount to anything, and they become mentally healthy astronauts.

Emotional reactions are not necessarily about if an event is deemed "bad" "good" or "neutral." (Even people who experience the same objectively "bad" things, react to them differently.) They are in large part determined by the "story" a person [i]tells themselves[/i] about the event. It's the 3 P's. Those who frame the event in personal, pervasive, and permanent terms are more likely to be depressed by it.

Say A and B fail a test. That's an objectively bad thing.

"A" explains the failure by telling themselves: "its the teacher's fault," or "Next time, I'll study harder, and do better next time," or "this just isn't my thing.""A" may feel terrible about failing, but has a good chance of recovering mentally from it.

"B" explains the failure by saying: "Its all my fault," "It's useless, nothing I can do will help me get this," or "I'm stupid." "B" feels terrible and has a poorer chance of recovering, because the narrative "B" tells himself is leading him into a mental cycle of learned helplessness.

The decision to have an abortion does not exist in a vacume ... anyone, even if they don't believe abortion is wrong, can become deeply depressed by the circumstances which led into or result from that decision, especially if they explain the situation in personal, permanent, and pervasive terms.

And devout religious people can recover quite well, which is not to say they don't regret it deeply ... its just that instead of telling themselves that their action means they are "going to Hell," "unloveable," "a screw up," etc., they tell themsevles "I made a terrible mistake, but I can take action to help myself out of whatever brought me to this decision, God will bring good from it, I can go on to serve Him well," etc.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[bonkers]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1726085' date='Dec 11 2008, 08:31 PM']Gleech, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what women are "told." Some women grow up being told they won't amount to anything, and they become mentally healthy astronauts.

Emotional reactions are not necessarily about if an event is deemed "bad" "good" or "neutral." (Even people who experience the same objectively "bad" things, react to them differently.) They are in large part determined by the "story" a person [i]tells themselves[/i] about the event. It's the 3 P's. Those who frame the event in personal, pervasive, and permanent terms are more likely to be depressed by it.

Say A and B fail a test. That's an objectively bad thing.

"A" explains the failure by telling themselves: "its the teacher's fault," or "Next time, I'll study harder, and do better next time," or "this just isn't my thing.""A" may feel terrible about failing, but has a good chance of recovering mentally from it.

"B" explains the failure by saying: "Its all my fault," "It's useless, nothing I can do will help me get this," or "I'm stupid." "B" feels terrible and has a poorer chance of recovering, because the narrative "B" tells himself is leading him into a mental cycle of learned helplessness.

The decision to have an abortion does not exist in a vacume ... anyone, even if they don't believe abortion is wrong, can become deeply depressed by the circumstances which led into or result from that decision, especially if they explain the situation in personal, permanent, and pervasive terms.

And devout religious people can recover quite well, which is not to say they don't regret it deeply ... its just that instead of telling themselves that their action means they are "going to Hell," "unloveable," "a screw up," etc., they tell themsevles "I made a terrible mistake, but I can take action to help myself out of whatever brought me to this decision, God will bring good from it, I can go on to serve Him well," etc.[/quote]

You don't understand. Your little experiment fails because it assumes abortion is an objectively "bad" thing, but most people don't think it is. What about person "C", who doesn't care, or wants to fail? His emotional reaction will likely mirror his attitude towards the test.
Of course, women, who are brainwashed into believing they are committing murder are more LIKELY to suffer anxiety and depression than someone thinks they are doing nothing wrong. That's not to say every woman who has an abortion and believes they committed murder aren't emotionally well equipped to deal with it, but generally speaking you will find those who suffer from guilt from having an abortion [u]believe they did a bad thing[/u], and those that don't believe they didn't.

[Arpy]

How does most people (also, [[color="blue"][i]citation needed[/i][/color]] on that) not thinking abortion is objectively bad not make it so? A majority of people used to be just fine with slavery, so does that somehow make it all right? And yes, abortion is not the same as slavery. However, they are both intrinsically evil.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Arpy' post='1726247' date='Dec 11 2008, 10:40 PM']How does most people (also, [[color="blue"][i]citation needed[/i][/color]] on that) not thinking abortion is objectively bad not make it so? A majority of people used to be just fine with slavery, so does that somehow make it all right? And yes, abortion is not the same as slavery. However, they are both intrinsically evil.[/quote]

That is YOUR opinion, and your opinion doesn't make something objectively so. As I said, it's a matter of perspective. If someone believes it to be intrinsically evil, they are more likely to suffer guilt, anxiety and depression than someone who doesn't. That's what we're talking about here, not whether abortion is objectively right or wrong.

[Lilllabettt]

Person "C" who "doesn't care" or "wants to fail" is exhibiting anti social beahvior. Person C is probably already depressed.

I specifically said in my post that emotional reactions are independent of the objective negativity, positivity, or neutrality of the event. Did you read it? I explicitly did NOT assume that abortion is an objectively bad thing for the purpose of the discussion.

You suggest that women who have been "brainwashed" to believe abortion is murder are more likely to suffer depression ... (I would like you to define what constitues brainwashing and why you chose that specific term) my point is that is hooey. I seriously doubt there are statistics to back that up. You assume that is the case because it "makes sense" to you, but the fact is, guilt, depression, anger, anxiety are amorphous things and they don't "make sense."

[quote name='bonkers' post='1726242' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:25 PM']generally speaking you will find those who suffer from guilt from having an abortion [u]believe they did a bad thing[/u], and those that don't believe they didn't.[/quote]

This is totally your opinion and absolute hooey. Women who miscarry naturally are susceptible to depression regardless if they believe they miscarried a person or a mere fetus. That is because the miscarriage does not happen in a vacume; pregnancy has to do with motherhood, relationships with men, marriage, family, sexuality, femininity, a whole range of issues.

Women have been poorly served by the medical community for a long time in this area; they have undergone abortions and then are "not allowed" by that community to be treated for the psychological issues flowing from that ... because somehow admitting that abortion has psychological effects means admitting that the unborn are persons.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it is interesting, to think there's anyone who insists that it's not a person. if they thought that, why isn't there a significant number who doesn't care to get people pregnant? why do they insist as strongly on condoms when they can just abort?
i mean, i know guys who don't care, and say it's not a person, but they don't care whether it's a person or not, they're usually nihilists. i'm wondering about people other than these characters.

my point ist hat i don't think anyone is truly sure it's not a person, even though many claim it.

Edited December 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[bonkers]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1726267' date='Dec 11 2008, 11:00 PM']Person "C" who "doesn't care" or "wants to fail" is exhibiting anti social beahvior. Person C is probably already depressed.[/quote]

Sounds like you're exhibiting an opinion. What sources do you have to prove this? I specifically remember failing exams at uni, not deliberality but through apathy (not caring) because the result did not impact on my final grade. This was neither anti-social nor depressive.

[quote]I specifically said in my post that emotional reactions are independent of the objective negativity, positivity, or neutrality of the event. Did you read it? I explicitly did NOT assume that abortion is an objectively bad thing for the purpose of the discussion.[/quote]

Then why did you use an objectively bad example, especially one as trivial as a test? Abortion is subjective, some people don't see it as bad, so I don't understand the link between that and your experiment. Your logic only applies to persons who think abortion is objectively bad. You would need to demonstrate your point using a subjective example, such as abortion.

[quote]You suggest that women who have been "brainwashed" to believe abortion is murder are more likely to suffer depression ... (I would like you to define what constitues brainwashing and why you chose that specific term) my point is that is hooey. I seriously doubt there are statistics to back that up. You assume that is the case because it "makes sense" to you, but the fact is, guilt, depression, anger, anxiety are amorphous things and they don't "make sense."[/quote]

I would postulate a person of normal conscience is likely to experience sensations of guilt, anxiety and possibly depression if they have believed they had committed the murder of an innocent and defencesless human being. Is this such an extreme statement to make? Would I really need verify it with facts and evidence? Really?

[quote]This is totally your opinion and absolute hooey. Women who miscarry naturally are susceptible to depression regardless if they believe they miscarried a person or a mere fetus. That is because the miscarriage does not happen in a vacume; pregnancy has to do with motherhood, relationships with men, marriage, family, sexuality, femininity, a whole range of issues.[/quote]

There is of course a difference between women who WANT children and those who don't. Show me evidence women who do not want children suffer depression after miscarriage.

[quote]Women have been poorly served by the medical community for a long time in this area; they have undergone abortions and then are "not allowed" by that community to be treated for the psychological issues flowing from that ... because somehow admitting that abortion has psychological effects means admitting that the unborn are persons.[/quote]

I agree, women should have rights to counselling services should they need them. Most women don't.