HisChildForever Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1719350' date='Dec 4 2008, 10:47 PM']So im wondering was it more that God really didnt want him to die this way but it was destined that it would happen if Jesus came ?[/quote] Remember, the concept of time does not exist for God. Jesus existed before the world even existed. So the question "if Jesus came" is sort of moot since He was always here. [quote]Sorta like if God were to interfer with the way they killed him he would be interrupting free will?[/quote] Remember, the Messiah was prophesized [i]long[/i] before Christ's birth. Jesus had to die - not just to completely fulfill messianic prophesy but to save us from sin. Jesus could have stopped them from nailing Him to the cross but He did not. He would not be fulfilling His purpose (or God's Will) if He did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1719604' date='Dec 5 2008, 01:15 AM']Remember, the concept of time does not exist for God. Jesus existed before the world even existed. So the question "if Jesus came" is sort of moot since He was always here. .[/quote] hmm ok. but he did choose to come did he not ? [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1719604' date='Dec 5 2008, 01:15 AM']Remember, the Messiah was prophesized [i]long[/i] before Christ's birth. Jesus had to die - not just to completely fulfill messianic prophesy but to save us from sin. Jesus could have stopped them from nailing Him to the cross but He did not. He would not be fulfilling His purpose (or God's Will) if He did.[/quote] Ya exactly. So God being out of time knew he would die this way. But it was not Gods choice for him to die this way. Jesus did not reject this death but at the same time I dont think he wanted to die this way. I dont think God wanted him to die this way either but God being outside of time knew that he would die this way. Is it wrong to say that even though God knew Christ would come here and die this way he was still against it ? They crucified Jesus because he claimed to be God and by all the miracles he performed right ? But as a little boy Jesus did not know he was going to fullfill this desinty did he ? So by God being outside of time he knew this would be the sacrifice that would save us. But at the same time as it pleased him doesnt it probally also grieve him very much so to ? Edited December 5, 2008 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1719653' date='Dec 5 2008, 12:48 AM']hmm ok. but he did choose to come did he not ?[/quote] Yes. [quote]But it was not Gods choice for him to die this way. Jesus did not reject this death but at the same time I dont think he wanted to die this way.[/quote] You are most likely reflecting upon the Garden of Gethsemane where Christ, deep in prayer, said "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will" (Matthew 26:42). This is an amazing line, actually. It is more than Christ simply demonstrating His humanity and His divinity. Rather, this is [i]our[/i] model to follow. No matter how afraid we are, or how much pain we may be in, we must submit to God's Will. We can ask Him to take away our burdens but, at the same time, we must acknowledge His Will and follow it without hesitation, no matter how much suffering we may experience along the way. [quote]I dont think God wanted him to die this way either but God being outside of time knew that he would die this way. Is it wrong to say that even though God knew Christ would come here and die this way he was still against it ?[/quote] While God was undoubtably troubled as Christ, His Son, was nailed to the cross, it was a worthwhile sacrifice that had to be made. God very much wanted our redemption. So in that sense, He was not against it. [quote]They crucified Jesus because he claimed to be God and by all the miracles he performed right ? But as a little boy Jesus did not know he was going to fullfill this desinty did he ?[/quote] Check out Luke 3:41-52. Mary and Joseph were searching for Jesus (he was twelve at the time) and found Him teaching in the temple. When His parents finally found Him, He says "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" So He was well aware of who He was. [quote]So by God being outside of time he knew this would be the sacrifice that would save us. But at the same time as it pleased him doesnt it probally also grieve him very much so to ?[/quote] Yes. Edited December 5, 2008 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheryl Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1719267' date='Dec 4 2008, 10:43 PM']I have to respectfully disagree.[/quote] Ditto. Like I said, I need time to gather citations. It won't be until at least tues or wed of next week, as I'm waiting on a book to arrive. I'd rather wait until then to respond further. If it's alright with you, it might be better to discuss this in another thread, since as you pointed out, this conversation has veer from the op. Edited December 5, 2008 by cheryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Bruno Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1718555' date='Dec 4 2008, 08:33 AM']I am wondering how Christ dieing on the cross pleased God and why this was the sacrifice that was needed to bring us back into a state of grace with God ? I believe God is all loving, good and kind in all respects. I just wonder what the thoughts of some here are as into why Jesus had to die the way he did ? Mabey there is not really an answer we can know now while were hear on earth ? So mabey this thread is pointless. I dunno.[/quote] I would say it this way : First, his sacrifice pleased God because God is love, and there is no greater love than to offer your live for those whom you love ; especially when this love goes so far as to accept the most cruel tortures... Second, because men separated from God because of disobedience ; Christ accepted death in full obedience to God. The only way to repair our disobedience was by Jesus' obedience. Not that God himself required such a cruel death. Yet it is true that even such a perfect sacrifice can only those only who become members of Christ through obedience. My personal interpretation is that this sacrifice was needed not because God required such a terrible suffering from his own Son (neither from any other human being), but because our sinful nature needed such a perfect act of love and obedience in order to touch our hearts, to make us discover the depth of God's love and thus bring us to conversion. I'm not sure whether I expressed this well. Feel free to disagree or to correct me with some wise quotes or disturbing questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheryl Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1719350' date='Dec 4 2008, 11:47 PM']That makes alot of sence. So im wondering was it more that God really didnt want him to die this way but it was destined that it would happen if Jesus came ? Sorta like if God were to interfer with the way they killed him he would be interrupting free will ? So if this was the case of course he would be pleased by the way Jesus died and shed his blood for us. Although God is probally very grieved at the way they killed his son. And Jesus could have interfered with free will when he talked about calling all his angels. But out of love he didnt.[/quote] Well yes and no. Remember that God is omnipresent. I'm reminded of a common saying which goes, "Don't worry about tomorrow, God is already there". So it's not as if he's looking down the corridor of time knowing that if He sent His Son, we would kill Him, but He did it anyway because He loves us. Christ's death was a good thing, even though instrumentally speaking, it was carried out by evil people with an evil intent. Remember: [color="#000080"]21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.22 [u]Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.[/u]"24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.-Mtt 16[/color] It is in God's very nature to pour Himself out, hence the Trinity-God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God. So let's suppose (as an example) that somehow physical death came over the human race through no fault of our own, and that we were actually sinless and would never have thought to crucify Christ. We would still have death....we'd still have hades/sheol/limbo, where our souls would go. In such a case, God wanting to save us, would still have become human and in becoming human would have in some way laid down His life, died like the rest of us, descended into limbo...what the creed terms hell and resurrected our souls and bodies along with his, ie would have gone down to where we were ie the grave and brought us back up. So even though crucifixion, hatred, fear, and ignorance of man, was the instrument that God used to lay down His life for us, the laying down of His life was very intentional on His part, and like I said, to sacrifice Himself, to pour Himself out is His very nature as Love. And that's why I think ultimately, he let mankind fall as far as we did, to the point of wanting to kill Him, so that He could all the more demonstrate His selfless giving over of Himself. [quote]Thats the part that really amazes me. I dont how anyone could be that brave to know they were going to be tortured and killed and know they could escape by calling all Heavens angels. Yet resist and die a horrific death. Its mind baffling.[/quote] I would even go as far as to say that Christ being God (and having no original sin) would not have died a natural death, making his sacrifice all that more poignant. Unlike us Christ didn't have to die: [color="#000080"]17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." -Jn 10.[/color] Edited December 5, 2008 by cheryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 [quote name='cheryl' post='1720360' date='Dec 5 2008, 05:29 PM']Ditto. Like I said, I need time to gather citations. It won't be until at least tues or wed of next week, as I'm waiting on a book to arrive. I'd rather wait until then to respond further. If it's alright with you, it might be better to discuss this in another thread, since as you pointed out, this conversation has veer from the op.[/quote] I just showed you specific quotes from the Catechism which blatantly explain that there is a Hell and that certain human beings will go there. Are you disagreeing with the Catechism as well? I just want to clarify that before starting a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Jesus Christ died for what he believed in. Then went home to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1720637' date='Dec 5 2008, 11:33 PM']I just showed you specific quotes from the Catechism which blatantly explain that there is a Hell and that certain human beings will go there. Are you disagreeing with the Catechism as well? I just want to clarify that before starting a thread.[/quote] There is also a vision John is revelations stating there were all people all nations all tribe all languages, before the throne in white robes worshiping God. If you cannot foresee you are going to heaven then you cannot foresee what God had judged on the last day. He also said the one who conquers will inherit ALL THINGS. It also said he would grant us permission to eat freely from the tree of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 QUOTE I say possibility because not all of us will choose Heaven. -im going choose to go to disneyland... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 [quote name='nvzbl' post='1720872' date='Dec 6 2008, 01:12 PM']There is also a vision John is revelations stating there were all people all nations all tribe all languages, before the throne in white robes worshiping God. If you cannot foresee you are going to heaven then you cannot foresee what God had judged on the last day. He also said the one who conquers will inherit ALL THINGS. It also said he would grant us permission to eat freely from the tree of life.[/quote] Do you realize that it is heresy to state that no one will go to Hell? This is contrary to what the True Church teaches. This is basic Catholic theology! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (edited) I know it says it in the bible. But it says more than that though. Edited December 6, 2008 by nvzbl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (edited) It also says all people were before the throne of God worshiping him. Edited December 6, 2008 by nvzbl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nvzbl Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (edited) [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZZNUQVaxpg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZZNUQVaxpg[/url] Edited December 6, 2008 by nvzbl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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