How Did Christ Dying On The Cross Please God ?

[Guest]

I am wondering how Christ dieing on the cross pleased God and why this was the sacrifice that was needed to bring us back into a state of grace with God ? I believe God is all loving, good and kind in all respects. I just wonder what the thoughts of some here are as into why Jesus had to die the way he did ? Mabey there is not really an answer we can know now while were hear on earth ? So mabey this thread is pointless. I dunno.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Guest

[HisChildForever]

There is a lot of discussion concerning parallels with Adam and Eve. For example, Mary is the "new Eve." Christ is like the "new Adam" whereas man brought sin into the world, but Christ brought sin out of the world. Now of course we are all sinners and Christ did not destroy sin per se, but he opened up the path of salvation and triumphed over death, opening the gates of Heaven. He suffered for our sake so that there is the possibility of us attaining Heaven - and I say possibility because not all of us will choose Heaven.

Here is some information from the Catechism which explains it very well.

[quote]"For our sake God made him to be sin"

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."402 Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."404

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".407[/quote]

[quote]III. CHRIST OFFERED HIMSELF TO HIS FATHER FOR OUR SINS

Christ's whole life is an offering to the Father

606 The Son of God, who came down "from heaven, not to do [his] own will, but the will of him who sent [him]",413 said on coming into the world, "Lo, I have come to do your will, O God." "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."414 From the first moment of his Incarnation the Son embraces the Father's plan of divine salvation in his redemptive mission: "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work."415 The sacrifice of Jesus "for the sins of the whole world"416 expresses his loving communion with the Father. "The Father loves me, because I lay down my life", said the Lord, "[for] I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father."417

607 The desire to embrace his Father's plan of redeeming love inspired Jesus' whole life,418 for his redemptive passion was the very reason for his Incarnation. And so he asked, "And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour."419 And again, "Shall I not drink the cup which the Father has given me?"420 From the cross, just before "It is finished", he said, "I thirst."421[/quote]

[quote]Christ's death is the unique and definitive sacrifice

613 Christ's death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world",439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the "blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins".440

614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.441 First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.442

Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience

615 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities".444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445

Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross

616 It is love "to the end"446 that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.447 Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."448 No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449 and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us."450 And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."451

Our participation in Christ's sacrifice

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]",454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457


Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458[/quote]

Source: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm#II"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm#II[/url]

[cheryl]

[quote]I say possibility because not all of us will choose Heaven.[/quote]

We should hope that all are saved.

[i]For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us [u]and on the whole world[/u]

[/i]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='cheryl' post='1718913' date='Dec 4 2008, 05:09 PM']We should hope that all are saved.

[i]For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us [u]and on the whole world[/u]

[/i][/quote]

I do not disagree with this. I said that some of us will not choose Heaven - that is, those who reject Christ. This has nothing to do with hope. Of course I hope all are saved. But not all will be saved, which the Bible tells us.

[cheryl]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1718555' date='Dec 4 2008, 02:33 AM']I am wondering how Christ dieing on the cross pleased God and why this was the sacrifice that was needed to bring us back into a state of grace with God ? I believe God is all loving, good and kind in all respects. I just wonder what the thoughts of some here are as into why Jesus had to die the way he did ? Mabey there is not really an answer we can know now while were hear on earth ? So mabey this thread is pointless. I dunno.[/quote]

Well, I don't have any catechism quotes, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But the way I see it, "Christ's whole life was a sacrifice [i]needed[/i] to bring us back into a state of grace with God". When Christ came, God came. God hugged his mother, played with childhood friends, influencing those around him (even religious leaders!), touched and cure the sick and sinful (especially those who no one else would touch). He so gave himself over to the world (which is what sacrifice means ie, to surrender something) so completely that he didn't even try to defend himself when prosecuted and put to death. He did not resist his executioners, but submitted to them. From the moment he was conceived in his mother's womb to the moment he breathed his last on the cross, God was continuing to reach out to us, to make reparation (that is, to repair) whatever damage he saw, he made the sick well, the demon possessed whole. he undid everything that sin caused even to the point of overthrowing death, and he continues to do so and invites us to imitate him by doing the same. So that no matter what our station in life, we are called to make a sacrifice of ourselves, that is to surrender ourselves in love, so that wherever we find disorder and sin, we may undo it, that is make reparation ie we are to repair the damage done. Even where God and Mary are concerned, we are told to make reparation for the sins committed against them.

[cheryl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1718929' date='Dec 4 2008, 06:23 PM']I do not disagree with this. I said that some of us will not choose Heaven - that is, those who reject Christ. This has nothing to do with hope. Of course I hope all are saved. But not all will be saved, which the Bible tells us.[/quote]

How can you hope for something that you know for sure will never come about? The catechism says, that we are to leave the judgment of persons (as it pertains to mortal sin) to God.

[Noel's angel]

Only God could save us from the huge burden of sin. It was a task no one else could do. It was the ultimate sign of Love, and as well all know, love is sacrificial in itself.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='cheryl' post='1718941' date='Dec 4 2008, 05:32 PM']How can you hope for something that you know for sure will never come about? The catechism says, that we are to leave the judgment of persons (as it pertains to mortal sin) to God.[/quote]

To say that all will be saved and go to Heaven is against the teaching of the Church since the Church teaches that many will reject Christ. I can hope that Person X and Person Y convert and turn to Christ and try to help them in this process, but overall I know that not every human being is going to make it into Heaven because Christ himself told us this: i.e., the narrow gate passage in Scripture.

[Noel's angel]

wow people, can we keep this on topic and not start a debate?

I think you both actually think the same thing but are coming at it from different angles. Basically, we can hope that all will turn to God, even though we know that not everyone will. At the same time, we cannot judge who will go to Heaven or who won't (as we don't know what is in another man's heart at the moment of his death).

[cheryl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1718950' date='Dec 4 2008, 06:38 PM']To say that all will be saved and go to Heaven is against the teaching of the Church since the Church teaches that many will reject Christ. I can hope that Person X and Person Y convert and turn to Christ and try to help them in this process, but overall I know that not every human being is going to make it into Heaven because Christ himself told us this: i.e., the narrow gate passage in Scripture.[/quote]


It's not against Church teaching. One of the first individuals I ran across when investigating the Church's stance on this issue was actually JP2 himself. Unfortunately I no longer have a source to cite. But I'll see what I can do. As for the narrow gate passage, all Christ says is that few are those who find it. That's not the same as saying, they'll never find it as long as they live.

[cheryl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1718955' date='Dec 4 2008, 06:41 PM']wow people, can we keep this on topic and not start a debate?

I think you both actually think the same thing but are coming at it from different angles. Basically, we can hope that all will turn to God, even though we know that not everyone will. At the same time, we cannot judge who will go to Heaven or who won't (as we don't know what is in another man's heart at the moment of his death).[/quote]

Again, how can you hope for something that you know will never come about?

It's the difference between saying:

I hope Jill will come to my birthday party!

and

I had hoped that Jill would have come to my birthday party...but alas...she did not.

Hope and faith go together. It requires faith. If you already believe not everyone will be saved you are not hoping for the salvation of all, rather you are hoping that the outcome (which you already know) would have been different.

[HisChildForever]

I apologize that we are off topic but since Delivery Boy has yet to post follow-ups to our responses regarding his question, I feel it is alright to continue for the time being. Once he returns I am sure we will get back on track.

[quote name='cheryl' post='1718962' date='Dec 4 2008, 05:45 PM']It's not against Church teaching. One of the first individuals I ran across when investigating the Church's stance on this issue was actually JP2 himself. Unfortunately I no longer have a source to cite. But I'll see what I can do. As for the narrow gate passage, all Christ says is that few are those who find it. That's not the same as saying, they'll never find it as long as they live.[/quote]

I have to respectfully disagree.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, [i]and those who enter through it are many[/i]. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few." - Matthew 7: 13-14

This has to do with eternal life and eternal death.

Furthermore, we see in verses 22 through 23, which clearly indicates that people will go to Hell.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'"

Overall I am unsure of your argument. Do you believe that no one will go to Hell? This [b]is[/b] contrary to Church teaching.

From the Catechism:
[quote]1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.[/quote]

So yes. There are humans who will go to Hell.

[Guest]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1718893' date='Dec 4 2008, 05:47 PM']Source: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm#II"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm#II[/url][/quote]




thanks for the catechism . was very helpfull just read it.

[Guest]

[quote name='cheryl' post='1718936' date='Dec 4 2008, 06:29 PM']Well, I don't have any catechism quotes, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But the way I see it, "Christ's whole life was a sacrifice [i]needed[/i] to bring us back into a state of grace with God". When Christ came, God came. God hugged his mother, played with childhood friends, influencing those around him (even religious leaders!), touched and cure the sick and sinful (especially those who no one else would touch). He so gave himself over to the world (which is what sacrifice means ie, to surrender something) so completely that he didn't even try to defend himself when prosecuted and put to death. He did not resist his executioners, but submitted to them. From the moment he was conceived in his mother's womb to the moment he breathed his last on the cross, God was continuing to reach out to us, to make reparation (that is, to repair) whatever damage he saw, he made the sick well, the demon possessed whole. he undid everything that sin caused even to the point of overthrowing death, and he continues to do so and invites us to imitate him by doing the same. So that no matter what our station in life, we are called to make a sacrifice of ourselves, that is to surrender ourselves in love, so that wherever we find disorder and sin, we may undo it, that is make reparation ie we are to repair the damage done. Even where God and Mary are concerned, we are told to make reparation for the sins committed against them.[/quote]


That makes alot of sence. So im wondering was it more that God really didnt want him to die this way but it was destined that it would happen if Jesus came ? Sorta like if God were to interfer with the way they killed him he would be interrupting free will ? So if this was the case of course he would be pleased by the way Jesus died and shed his blood for us. Although God is probally very grieved at the way they killed his son. And Jesus could have interfered with free will when he talked about calling all his angels. But out of love he didnt.

Thats the part that really amazes me. I dont how anyone could be that brave to know they were going to be tortured and killed and know they could escape by calling all Heavens angels. Yet resist and die a horrific death. Its mind baffling.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1719267' date='Dec 4 2008, 10:43 PM']I apologize that we are off topic but since Delivery Boy has yet to post follow-ups to our responses regarding his question, I feel it is alright to continue for the time being. Once he returns I am sure we will get back on track.[/quote]


its all good. its interesting to read.