Pro Choice

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1717997' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:15 PM']Would you say the same about someone who didn't believe a two-year-old is a person?[/quote]


My three year old isn't a person, he is future investment to get chores done, so I dont have to clean my own house.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718002' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:17 PM']nvbl, i think, is ignoring this post.




i disagree with win that the issue is clearly over as to the personhood of the child.

but that really is the issue. life, murder etc.

nvz, the issue is not that we should just be happy happy about murder. if you don't think that you're being happy happy about murder, then you are tacitly acknowledging that murder ist he issue, and that it needs to be addressed more explicitly, cause it's really the heart of hte matter.

again, since you're not, it seems pretty obvious to me that nvz is ignoring the issue.[/quote]
Im confused.

[icelandic_iceskater]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717987' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:09 PM']I believe in freedom. I do not agree with abortion. (personally)[/quote]
[i]"Freedom consists not in having the ability to do what you wish, but in having the right to do what you ought"[/i] ~JP2

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718009' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:19 PM']some ppl think it's clearly full human person at all points, end of discussion.
some ppl think it's not.
some ppl think it's unclear.

i'd say it's unclear. i think all other positions are reasonable.
but, if i had to pick a position that was unreasonable, i'd argue that thinking all other positions are unreasonable, is itself the unreasonable position.[/quote]


I agree will all of them. I dont have all the answers.

[Guest nvzbl]

But i think youre right if I had to decide I would believe it is unclear if it is fully developed enough.

[icelandic_iceskater]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1718025' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:26 PM']I agree will all of them. I dont have all the answers.[/quote]
you agree with the person who believes that an unborn baby is a baby, and you agree with the person who believes its not?

could you explain how that works?

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1718036' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:29 PM']you agree with the person who believes that an unborn baby is a baby, and you agree with the person who believes its not?

could you explain how that works?[/quote]
[quote name='nvzbl' post='1718027' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:27 PM']But i think youre right if I had to decide I would believe it is unclear if it is fully developed enough.[/quote]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717982' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:07 PM']Because they aren't. Abortions are not desirable things. No one wants to have one. People think they need them. That's a separate issue, though.[/quote]

I don't totally understand what you're saying-I understand that you don't believe a fetus is a human being. But then, by that logic, what is the issue with abortion for you? -Katie

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1717997' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:15 PM']Would you say the same about someone who didn't believe a two-year-old is a person?[/quote]
Red herring. There is no disagreement about whether a born child is a person. There is much disagreement about whether or not a fetus is a person, however. It stems from differences in belief about what gives personhood. If someone doesn't believe in souls, its quite easy to believe a baby isnt a person until after it's born.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1718052' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:37 PM']I don't totally understand what you're saying-I understand that you don't believe a fetus is a human being. But then, by that logic, what is the issue with abortion for you? -Katie[/quote]
Because I don't subscribe to all-or-nothing thinking. Abortion is not a good thing, that's why I am not pro-abortion. I don't think anyone needs abortion. That doesn't stop me from presuming to make decisions for other people, though.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1718002' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:17 PM']nvbl, i think, is ignoring this post.




i disagree with win that the issue is clearly over as to the personhood of the child.

but that really is the issue. life, murder etc.

nvz, the issue is not that we should just be happy happy about murder. if you don't think that you're being happy happy about murder, then you are tacitly acknowledging that murder ist he issue, and that it needs to be addressed more explicitly, cause it's really the heart of hte matter.

again, since you're not, it seems pretty obvious to me that nvz is ignoring the issue.[/quote]

Love is the heart of the matter.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1718060' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:41 PM']Because I don't subscribe to all-or-nothing thinking. Abortion is not a good thing, that's why I am not pro-abortion. I don't think anyone needs abortion. That doesn't stop me from presuming to make decisions for other people, though.[/quote]

I get what you're saying but would you agree that if I categorically believe that a fetus is a human life, it would be unreasonable for me to support another's right to take his/her life? And if you're not sure, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution? -Katie

Edited December 4, 2008 by Tinkerlina

[MissScripture]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1718055' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:39 PM']Red herring. There is no disagreement about whether a born child is a person. There is much disagreement about whether or not a fetus is a person, however. It stems from differences in belief about what gives personhood. If someone doesn't believe in souls, its quite easy to believe a baby isnt a person until after it's born.[/quote]
But what makes it a person once it is born? How is a born baby so different from an unborn baby that makes the difference between it being a person or not being a person?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1718069' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:45 PM']But what makes it a person once it is born? How is a born baby so different from an unborn baby that makes the difference between it being a person or not being a person?[/quote]

Even more than this, though, I think the issue is if someone believes that a fetus is a human life and is thus against abortion, how can that person then support the "right" of another to take the life? -Katie

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1718055' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:39 PM']Red herring. There is no disagreement about whether a born child is a person. There is much disagreement about whether or not a fetus is a person, however. It stems from differences in belief about what gives personhood. If someone doesn't believe in souls, its quite easy to believe a baby isnt a person until after it's born.[/quote]

You said some people don't believe the unborn are persons, so they should be allowed to kill them. My point is, WHAT IF someone said the same about a toddler? It's purely a hypothetical, but if it were to happen, would you defend them in the same way as you do people who support abortion?