Pro Choice

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 02:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion personally and promote safe sex and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]

This violates the Principal of Non-Contradiction. Pro-Choice is Pro-Abortion, one can not be both against something and also for something. "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other."

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1717503' date='Dec 3 2008, 03:02 PM']This violates the Principal of Non-Contradiction. Pro-Choice is Pro-Abortion, one can not be both against something and also for something. "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other."[/quote]


that's not necessarily true.

and you're also being inconsistent yourself, unless you're willing to say "all sins should be outlawed".
otherwise, one could say you violated the principle of contradiction. "i personally oppose sinning, but i'm not going to ban every sin out there"

if you question the personhood of the cell early on, and value freedom of choice above questionable but very possibly human life, i think it'd be reasonable to be prochoice but personally opposed.

but, i think it's crazy to think killing is okay if you're personally opposed to it, ie if you actually think that it's killing. it's irrational. not cause of the principle of noncontradiction though, cause killing outside of the womb and inside are different at least in some degrees. ie there's always a distinction one could base their judgment on.
if you presuppose you can't make those distinctions, or they are maningless, then it's you who are creating the strawman arguably, by saying what they beleive. "the distinction is meansingless therefore X"
what should be argued is a more normative thing... "you sholdn't believe the distinction is meaningful cause Y"

Edited December 3, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 02:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion personally and promote safe sex and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]

My belief is that abortion is the ending of a human life, so I can't and don't promote letting anyone have the choice to do it any more than I can say that they have a choice to kill the guy across the street or the woman next door. I definitely believe that we need to have compassion and understanding and most pro-life people I know do too. It isn't for us to judge a person, but I believe we should speak up for the unborn children, who do not have the ability to speak for themselves.We must be compassionate and teach God's forgiveness, that is definitely true. I don't think someone who has had an abortion is loved less by God- I believe that forgiveness is available to everyone. -Katie

[Winchester]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1717422' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:11 PM']And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro [s]Choice[/s] [color="#FF0000"]child molestation legalization[/color], with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against [s]abortion [/s] [color="#FF0000"]child molestation[/color]personally and promote safe [s]sex [/s][color="#FF0000"]child molestation[/color]and cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.[/quote]
You neglect to count the unborn as a person, or you discount the rights of the unborn to life. Logically and scientifically, you are legalizing the killing of a human person at the whim of another. Substitute any clearly immoral action and you should see the error in your statement.

[Fidei Defensor]

lol.

I'm pro-[b]choice[/b] but anti-religion. I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them. However, I am pro-[b]choice[/b] and I think that everyone has the [b]choice[/b] to follow a religion, even if I think they are complete morons for doing so.

That's why pro-choice isn't necessarily pro-abortion. Not everyone believes a fetus is a person. I'm quite aware of all the fuss you throw about it being one. But that doesn't change the fact that SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THAT. You can call it whatever you want, but until you take a walk in someone else's shoes and understand what they believe, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. There are honest to God people out there who don't see why a fetus is a person and are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1717495' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:58 PM']nvzbl, I'm a bit confused about exactly what you DO think.

It isn't possible to be against abortion but pro choice at the same time. Also, what 'safe sex' is this you would be promoting?[/quote]

With God, all things are possible.

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1717495' date='Dec 3 2008, 01:58 PM']nvzbl, I'm a bit confused about exactly what you DO think.

It isn't possible to be against abortion but pro choice at the same time. Also, what 'safe sex' is this you would be promoting?[/quote]

It is my understanding that God wants us to be married before we have sex. And so that having a child (and when) can be a choice husband and wife have, to, decide for themselves. A child or a fetus is and always will be a glorious gift from God.

Edited December 3, 2008 by nvzbl

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:38 PM']lol.
I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them.[/quote]


Me too. I think that, though, is what intrigues me the most. To share what I feel on the views of religion and the religious.
I'd rather consider myself religious though. LoL.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM']I'm pro-[b]choice[/b] but anti-religion. I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them. However, I am pro-[b]choice[/b] and I think that everyone has the [b]choice[/b] to follow a religion, even if I think they are complete morons for doing so.[/quote]

"Pro choice" is an odd term, imo. Techincally, anything is a choice. Hitler made a choice to persecute the Jewish people, Ted Bundy made a choice every time he killed someone. Everyone has a choice, but it does not mean that they should be given a free and clear pass to make it. Regardless of what one believes, is one is opposed to abortion on the grounds that the unborn child is a human life that is being murdered, it would be neither ethical nor logical to stand back and allow that life to be taken. And as far as your argument on religious differences, I think a matter of life or death is a much different issue. Ex: Say you decide to eat strawberry ice cream with sprinkles every day at 3:44 pm unflinchingly. Go for it-I'm all about you having that choice. But if you decide that you have to take out your neighbor afterward, I'd have to object to that. And regardless of whether or not everyone believes a fetus is a human life doesn't change the fact that I do and I am thereby obligated to vote against abortion.

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM']There are honest to God people out there who don't see why a fetus is a person and are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion.[/quote]

If you are pro choice and dont' believe that a fetus is a person, why not be pro abortion? Wanting abortion to be legal and widely accessible/available, you obviously don't have a problem with it. So why say you are not pro abortion? -Katie

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1717944' date='Dec 3 2008, 05:53 PM']"Pro choice" is an odd term, imo. Techincally, anything is a choice. Hitler made a choice to persecute the Jewish people, Ted Bundy made a choice every time he killed someone. Everyone has a choice, but it does not mean that they should be given a free and clear pass to make it. Regardless of what one believes, is one is opposed to abortion on the grounds that the unborn child is a human life that is being murdered, it would be neither ethical nor logical to stand back and allow that life to be taken. And as far as your argument on religious differences, I think a matter of life or death is a much different issue. Ex: Say you decide to eat strawberry ice cream with sprinkles every day at 3:44 pm unflinchingly. Go for it-I'm all about you having that choice. But if you decide that you have to take out your neighbor afterward, I'd have to object to that. And regardless of whether or not everyone believes a fetus is a human life doesn't change the fact that I do and I am thereby obligated to vote against abortion.



If you are pro choice and dont' believe that a fetus is a person, why not be pro abortion? Wanting abortion to be legal and widely accessible/available, you obviously don't have a problem with it. So why say you are not pro abortion? -Katie[/quote]
Because they aren't. Abortions are not desirable things. No one wants to have one. People think they need them. That's a separate issue, though.

[Guest nvzbl]

I believe in freedom. I do not agree with abortion. (personally)

Edited December 4, 2008 by nvzbl

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717982' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:07 PM']Because they aren't. Abortions are not desirable things. No one wants to have one. People think they need them. That's a separate issue, though.[/quote]
No, I think that is a very intelligent insight. If you dont mind, I would like to hear more about that..

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1717882' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:38 PM']lol.

I'm pro-[b]choice[/b] but anti-religion. I hate religion. I think it turns people's brains into mush and causes them to become like robots, following anything their leader tells them. However, I am pro-[b]choice[/b] and I think that everyone has the [b]choice[/b] to follow a religion, even if I think they are complete morons for doing so.

That's why pro-choice isn't necessarily pro-abortion. Not everyone believes a fetus is a person. I'm quite aware of all the fuss you throw about it being one. But that doesn't change the fact that SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THAT. You can call it whatever you want, but until you take a walk in someone else's shoes and understand what they believe, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. There are honest to God people out there who don't see why a fetus is a person and are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion.[/quote]

Would you say the same about someone who didn't believe a two-year-old is a person?

[dairygirl4u2c]

nvbl, i think, is ignoring this post.


[quote]QUOTE (nvzbl @ Dec 3 2008, 01:11 PM) *
And I think it is perfetly possible for one to remain Pro Choice child molestation legalization, with compassion and understanding in mind. And be against abortion child molestationpersonally and promote safe sex child molestationand cuonsel the forgiveness of Gods Love.

You neglect to count the unborn as a person, or you discount the rights of the unborn to life. Logically and scientifically, you are legalizing the killing of a human person at the whim of another. Substitute any clearly immoral action and you should see the error in your statement.[/quote]

i disagree with win that the issue is clearly over as to the personhood of the child.

but that really is the issue. life, murder etc.

nvz, the issue is not that we should just be happy happy about murder. if you don't think that you're being happy happy about murder, then you are tacitly acknowledging that murder ist he issue, and that it needs to be addressed more explicitly, cause it's really the heart of hte matter.

again, since you're not, it seems pretty obvious to me that nvz is ignoring the issue.

[dairygirl4u2c]

some ppl think it's clearly full human person at all points, end of discussion.
some ppl think it's not.
some ppl think it's unclear.

i'd say it's unclear. i think all other positions are reasonable.
but, if i had to pick a position that was unreasonable, i'd argue that thinking all other positions are unreasonable, is itself the unreasonable position.