Conscience Vs Church

[Ziggamafu]

If anyone wants, I wrote a fairly extensive examination on the nature, discernment, and amendment of mortal sin (as well as, bar none, a more exhuastively thorough examination of conscience than any other that I have ever seen). Everything is cited, footnoted, etc. Sources are given - all trustworthy and authoritative.

PM me your email address if you want it. If I posted it I would lose the footnotes - they don't paste in from Word.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1722204' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:56 AM']My problem is with you saying it's *usually* a venial sin.

Is that really a prudent thing to say?[/quote]

Well, I am speculating when I say "usually," but common sense would dictate that the vast majority of teen and young adult Catholics are not living in mortal sin.

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1723172' date='Dec 9 2008, 12:42 PM']It's true that habit can compromise your free will, but I don't think that this is true the extent that most sexual sins are venial! If you apply it to masturbation you have to apply it to adultery and fornication, too - I'm in the habit of sleeping around, so I didn't really consent my will...[/quote]

Indeed, I would apply it to those situations too. Consent is always involved. We make the choices to develop bad habits that compromise our will down the road. With grave sin, that habit eventually cuts us off from grace. But a particular sinful action isn't necessarily grave. It might be, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Does it look to you like everybody who masturbates ceases to pray, seek forgiveness, and amend his life? Because they are still pushing toward heaven in spite of their sins, they are still cooperating with grace, which means they are receiving grace.

Now, if one should despair because they become convinced that freedom from this sin is impossible, that God cannot continue forgiving them, etc. then the sin becomes mortal because they have ceased cooperating with grace.

[quote name='mortify' post='1722204' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:56 AM']IMO the free will qualification is more for people who really have a mental disorder, not the typical hormone crazy teenager.[/quote]

The advice of qualified priests that I've read does not agree. Hormones can produce a conflict of will, especially in those who aren't mature enough to control them. But, there must be a genuine conflict. Giving in every time a temptation presents itself will cause the grave sin to quickly run amok on a person's soul.

[quote name='mortify' post='1722204' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:56 AM']I do understand that you have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis and that many times it is a venial sin, but saying that it is usually a venial sin is dangerous, because it will encourage people who are in mortal sin not to take it seriously - oh, it's probably venial. I can wait a couple of weeks to go to confession.[/quote]

If labeling something a venial sin is encouraging people to commit it, they have other spiritual issues. I don't think throwing the "mortal sin" label on everything grave is helpful.

[quote name='mortify' post='1722204' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:56 AM']I think that we should keep habit in mind so that we don't judge other people, but we shouldn't use it to make other people feel better about sinning. Priests should definitely consider this when hearing confessions, but we shouldn't talk about it so much that it makes it seem less serious than it is.[/quote]

No, the point isn't to make people feel better about sinning. That's silly. What we need is a more honest and thorough understanding of the causes so that we can become more holy from within rather than avoiding the action itself without addressing the underlying problem that causes attraction to a vice.

[quote name='mortify' post='1722204' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:56 AM']How does this make it more serious?[/quote]

Genuine followers of Christ aren't looking for ways to commit grave sin. In fact, they are seeking to live in virture and cast away vices. The problem develops when elements in our society that promote vices infiltrate the Church so much that otherwise virtuous Christians are lowering their guard and cooperating with evil in certain areas. If you hear a lie often enough (and especially from the right people, such as fellow Christians who seem devout enough), you'll begin to believe it yourself and act on it. So perhaps when such a lie involves grave sin, by compromising the will it isn't mortal, but the long-term effects are just as damaging (if not more so). This is why I say it's even more serious when grave sin is venial.

To be sure, there is always a line where one's personal will is cooperating to such an extent that no blame can be shifted to other people or influences. I'm not saying that a person could endlessly persist in grave sin without crossing that line. I'm focusing more on individual instances of that sin when the will is conflicted between doing the right thing and love for God versus selfish attraction to pleasing one's self. That's the sin needs to be addressed -- before the will is fully compromised.

Edited December 9, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[mortify]

Is dissent from the Magisterium ever ok?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1723650' date='Dec 9 2008, 10:04 PM']Is dissent from the Magisterium ever ok?[/quote]

Why do you ask that?

[frenchfry]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1723326' date='Dec 9 2008, 02:46 PM']Does it look to you like everybody who masturbates ceases to pray, seek forgiveness, and amend his life? Because they are still pushing toward heaven in spite of their sins, they are still cooperating with grace, which means they are receiving grace.

What we need is a more honest and thorough understanding of the causes so that we can become more holy from within rather than avoiding the action itself without addressing the underlying problem that causes attraction to a vice.[/quote]

Very good points. Maybe you are right - when you put it that way, it doesn't seem like that many people are in mortal sin. But, now I have another question - if people who are in a state of mortal sin stop seeking forgiveness, now is anyone ever forgiven of a mortal sin? It seems like people in this state would not go to confession.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1723952' date='Dec 10 2008, 09:38 AM']Why do you ask that?[/quote]

I ask because it's another misconception.

I think I'll make another poll!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1724077' date='Dec 10 2008, 01:58 PM']Very good points. Maybe you are right - when you put it that way, it doesn't seem like that many people are in mortal sin. But, now I have another question - if people who are in a state of mortal sin stop seeking forgiveness, now is anyone ever forgiven of a mortal sin? It seems like people in this state would not go to confession.[/quote]

If you die in mortal sin, no, you aren't forgiven. If you were, it wouldn't be a mortal sin.

As for being in a state of mortal sin and no longer seeking forgiveness... that could be a chicken-or-egg thing. Perhaps giving up on God's mercy is the final straw that makes a sin mortal... would have to think a little more on that and learn more of Church teaching in this area.

What I do know, from experience, is I've confessed sins that one could well argue were mortal at the time and been told by as competent a priest as any you'll find that I shouldn't withdraw from receiving Communion as long as I'm regularly going to Confession and confessing those sins when I need to. God knows your heart. That's the awesome thing about sacramental Reconciliation: you can fool other people (even if only for a time), but you can never fool God. If you're just telling yourself you'll go to Confession next week, but "next week" never becomes this week or today, then you're sinning against yourself and God. Fortunately, God knows your honest intentions, and we know they are honest when we fulfill them.

And that is a good question: Would someone in mortal sin even go to Confession? Only by the grace of God, which is the same grace that gets our Pope to Confession every week.

The way I see it, the whole purpose of the Church defining mortal sin is to get at the heart of the matter, which is our hearts. Two of the three criteria are subjective, and often times you can argue either way on both with any particular sinful act. It keeps us guessing, which is good because it's none of our business who is in mortal sin. God knows. The rest of us need to keep going to him and encourage everyone we know to do likewise.

Edited December 11, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1725573' date='Dec 11 2008, 04:01 PM']What I do know, from experience, is I've confessed sins that one could well argue were mortal at the time and been told by as competent a priest as any you'll find that I shouldn't withdraw from receiving Communion as long as I'm regularly going to Confession and confessing those sins when I need to. God knows your heart. That's the awesome thing about sacramental Reconciliation: you can fool other people (even if only for a time), but you can never fool God. If you're just telling yourself you'll go to Confession next week, but "next week" never becomes this week or today, then you're sinning against yourself and God. Fortunately, God knows your honest intentions, and we know they are honest when we fulfill them.[/quote]

Are you saying you can receive communion knowing you're in a state of mortal sin?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1726723' date='Dec 12 2008, 07:11 PM']Are you saying you can receive communion knowing you're in a state of mortal sin?[/quote]

What is said is, "I've confessed sins that [i]one could well argue[/i] were mortal at the time and been told by as competent a priest as any you'll find that I shouldn't withdraw from receiving Communion."

One could also argue they were not mortal sins. My priest didn't say one way or the other, but he knows I go to Confession regularly and apparently didn't see a reason to believe I was in mortal sin at the time. Otherwise, I know he wouldn't advise receiving Communion.

Mortal sin is something only God can judge. The Church guides us with the three qualifications for mortal sin, but only God can discern the depths of our hearts. Full knowledge and full consent aren't as simple as, "You knew it was wrong and you did it anyway." Nothing in life -- especially anything as consequential as the serious/grave matter of mortal sin -- is taken lightly by a true Christian.

Edited December 13, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Holly3278]

Follow Church teaching because their conscience is obviously misinformed if their conscience disagrees with one of the Church's moral teachings.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1727170' date='Dec 13 2008, 06:21 PM']Mortal sin is something only God can judge. The Church guides us with the three qualifications for mortal sin, but only God can discern the depths of our hearts. Full knowledge and full consent aren't as simple as, "You knew it was wrong and you did it anyway." Nothing in life -- especially anything as consequential as the serious/grave matter of mortal sin -- is taken lightly by a true Christian.[/quote]

I may be wrong but I don't think the nature of mortal sin is so mysterious that priests and laity can't identify it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Holly3278' post='1731542' date='Dec 18 2008, 06:59 PM']Follow Church teaching because their conscience is obviously misinformed if their conscience disagrees with one of the Church's moral teachings.[/quote]

Not sure if you read the beginning of the thread... the question centers around Church teaching that calls us to follow our conscience because doing otherwise is disingenuous. Of course, we are also called to form our conscience through prayer and virtue, but even "good" Catholics sometimes find their conscience at odds with the Church.

[quote name='mortify' post='1731812' date='Dec 19 2008, 01:14 AM']I may be wrong but I don't think the nature of mortal sin is so mysterious that priests and laity can't identify it.[/quote]

I'm not sure... it's something I'd like to discuss with a good moral theologian. Most of the time, I think it's more accurate and healthier for our conscience to identify a sin as grave rather than mortal, and sometimes it's even debateable whether a sin is grave or not. Claiming objective insight into knowledge and consent is a bit presumptuous, I think. A faithful priest surely has some insight into the gravity of sin and our culpability in it, but to declare that a person is definitely in mortal sin is presuming to have knowledge about how that person would be judged if they died right now. Only God has that knowledge.

What I take from the definition of mortal sin is simply God's perfect mercy and justice. I'd much rather explore those ocean depths than nitpick over one anothers' sins like the grains of sand on the shore. I think we so easily despair over our actions (or inactions) and needlessly worry about being in mortal sin while completely missing how we are being self-focused rather than God-focused. If our lives are centered around Christ, and we are working to eliminate whatever grave sins we might be committing, mortal sin shouldn't be a concern.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1731906' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:07 AM']I'm not sure... it's something I'd like to discuss with a good moral theologian. Most of the time, I think it's more accurate and healthier for our conscience to identify a sin as grave rather than mortal, and sometimes it's even debateable whether a sin is grave or not. Claiming objective insight into knowledge and consent is a bit presumptuous, I think. A faithful priest surely has some insight into the gravity of sin and our culpability in it, but to declare that a person is definitely in mortal sin is presuming to have knowledge about how that person would be judged if they died right now. Only God has that knowledge.[/quote]

I honestly don't think it's too complicated for a person or their confessor to determine whether a mortal sin has been committed. It really only consists of knowing something is a sin, the sin being grave, and committing it freely. Now I did read the contemporary Catechism and I see where you are coming from. The new catechism says mortal sin requires [i]"complete consent"[/i] and that [i]"the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense."[/i] I think these two statements can lead one to believe that committing a mortal sin is almost impossible, especially if "complete" consent means absence of feelings! But the Catechism clarifies in #1859 that Mortal sin [i]"implies a consent [u]sufficiently deliberate[/u] to be a personal choice."[/i] Even though prompting of the passions may *diminish* the free *character* of sin, no temptation can *cause* us to sin without our free will consenting and ultimately bringing the action into fruition.

Although I like the way the new catechism explains certain things, portions of it remain vague and can lead us into uncertainty. Priests and laity make judgments about mortal sin all the time, and the Church did not limit itself to calling actions "grave." But this of course does not mean we can[i] rashly[/i] judge whether someone committed a mortal sin or not.
[quote]What I take from the definition of mortal sin is simply God's perfect mercy and justice. I'd much rather explore those ocean depths than nitpick over one anothers' sins like the grains of sand on the shore. I think we so easily despair over our actions (or inactions) and needlessly worry about being in mortal sin while completely missing how we are being self-focused rather than God-focused. If our lives are centered around Christ, and we are working to eliminate whatever grave sins we might be committing, mortal sin shouldn't be a concern.[/quote]
Maybe a certain scrupulosity is possible but really, if someone is trying to avoid mortal sin and overcome vice aren't they God-focused? The first step in the spiritual life is the stage of purgation, where one detaches themselves from mortal sins.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1732042' date='Dec 19 2008, 03:21 PM']I honestly don't think it's too complicated for a person or their confessor to determine whether a mortal sin has been committed. It really only consists of knowing something is a sin, the sin being grave, and committing it freely. Now I did read the contemporary Catechism and I see where you are coming from. The new catechism says mortal sin requires [i]"complete consent"[/i] and that [i]"the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense."[/i] I think these two statements can lead one to believe that committing a mortal sin is almost impossible, especially if "complete" consent means absence of feelings! But the Catechism clarifies in #1859 that Mortal sin [i]"implies a consent [u]sufficiently deliberate[/u] to be a personal choice."[/i] Even though prompting of the passions may *diminish* the free *character* of sin, no temptation can *cause* us to sin without our free will consenting and ultimately bringing the action into fruition.

Although I like the way the new catechism explains certain things, portions of it remain vague and can lead us into uncertainty. Priests and laity make judgments about mortal sin all the time, and the Church did not limit itself to calling actions "grave." But this of course does not mean we can[i] rashly[/i] judge whether someone committed a mortal sin or not.[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by the free character of sin. I think anytime our will is conflicted between doing what we know is right and the temptation to satisfy selfish desire, it's difficult to make the case that we've given complete consent either way, regardless of whether we choose right or wrong. Priests and laity aren't always very well educated on these matters, which is why I'd prefer talking to a good moral theologian, or at least a priest that I personally know is trustworthy. Most priests are far too lax... and just to be clear, I'm not advocating a relaxed attitude towards sin. I'm just concerned with the consequences of overusing the "mortal sin" label.

[quote name='mortify' post='1732042' date='Dec 19 2008, 03:21 PM']Maybe a certain scrupulosity is possible but really, if someone is trying to avoid mortal sin and overcome vice aren't they God-focused? The first step in the spiritual life is the stage of purgation, where one detaches themselves from mortal sins.[/quote]

Not necessarily... it's very easy to become self-focused through the guise of being focused on God or ridding of our sin. The scrupulous and doubtful conscience (i.e. doubtful of a sin being committed) are both rooted in selfishness.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1732505' date='Dec 20 2008, 04:29 AM']Not sure what you mean by the free character of sin.[/quote]

This is the phrase the new catechism uses.

[quote]I think anytime our will is conflicted between doing what we know is right and the temptation to satisfy selfish desire, it's difficult to make the case that we've given complete consent either way, regardless of whether we choose right or wrong.[/quote]

That's an interpretation the Catechism[i] can[/i] lead us to believe, and it would nullify the existence of mortal sin! By "complete" consent the catechism simply means [i]"a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice"[/i] (#1859) A person who freely consents to temptation, permits desire to grow, and finally freely chooses to bring the desire into fruition, certainly has the marks of personal choice.

[quote]Not necessarily... it's very easy to become self-focused through the guise of being focused on God or ridding of our sin. The scrupulous and doubtful conscience (i.e. doubtful of a sin being committed) are both rooted in selfishness.[/quote]
You're right, I could have worded it better.

I just meant being God-focused and focusing on removing mortal sin, are not mutually exclusive. The ultimate focus being getting closer to God.