Shroud Of Turin

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote][url="http://www.physorg.com/news4652.html"]http://www.physorg.com/news4652.html[/url]

A mediaeval technique helped us to make a Shroud," Science & Vie (Science and Life) said in its July issue. The Shroud is claimed by its defenders to be the cloth in which the body of
Jesus Christ was wrapped after his crucifixion.
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It bears the faint image of a blood-covered man with holes in his hand and wounds in his body and head, the apparent result of being crucified, stabbed by a Roman spear and forced to wear a crown of thorns.

In 1988, scientists carried out carbon-14 dating of the delicate linen cloth and concluded that the material was made some time between 1260 and 1390. Their study prompted the then archbishop of Turin, where the Shroud is stored, to admit that the garment was a hoax. But the debate sharply revived in January this year.

Drawing on a method previously used by skeptics to attack authenticity claims about the Shroud, Science & Vie got an artist to do a bas-relief -- a sculpture that stands out from the surrounding background -- of a Christ-like face.

A scientist then laid out a damp linen sheet over the bas-relief and let it dry, so that the thin cloth was moulded onto the face. Using cotton wool, he then carefully dabbed ferric oxide, mixed with gelatine, onto the cloth to make blood-like marks. When the cloth was turned inside-out, the reversed marks resulted in the famous image of the crucified Christ.

Gelatine, an animal by-product rich in collagen, was frequently used by Middle Age painters as a fixative to bind pigments to canvas or wood.

The imprinted image turned out to be wash-resistant, impervious to temperatures of 250 C (482 F) and was undamaged by exposure to a range of harsh chemicals, including bisulphite which, without the help of the gelatine, would normally have degraded ferric oxide to the compound ferrous oxide.

The experiments, said Science & Vie, answer several claims made by the pro-Shroud camp, which says the marks could not have been painted onto the cloth.

For one thing, the Shroud's defenders argue, photographic negatives and scanners show that the image could only have derived from a three-dimensional object, given the width of the face, the prominent cheekbones and nose.

In addition, they say, there are no signs of any brushmarks. And, they argue, no pigments could have endured centuries of exposure to heat, light and smoke.

For Jacques di Costanzo, of Marseille University Hospital, southern France, who carried out the experiments, the mediaeval forger must have also used a bas-relief, a sculpture or cadaver to get the 3-D imprint.

The faker used a cloth rather than a brush to make the marks, and used gelatine to keep the rusty blood-like images permanently fixed and bright for selling in the booming market for religious relics.

To test his hypothesis, di Costanzo used ferric oxide, but no gelatine, to make other imprints, but the marks all disappeared when the cloth was washed or exposed to the test chemicals.

He also daubed the bas-relief with an ammoniac compound designed to represent human sweat and also with cream of aloe, a plant that was used as an embalming aid by Jews at the time of Christ.

He then placed the cloth over it for 36 hours -- the approximate time that Christ was buried before rising again -- but this time, there was not a single mark on it.

"It's obviously easier to make a fake shroud than a real one," Science & Vie report drily.

The first documented evidence of the Shroud dates back to 1357, when it surfaced at a church at Lirey, near the eastern French town of Troyes. In 1390, Pope Clement VII declared that it was not the true shroud but could be used as a representation of it, provided the faithful be told that it was not genuine.

In January this year, a US chemist, Raymond Rogers, said the radiocarbon samples for the 1988 study were taken from a piece that had been sewn into the fabric by nuns who repaired the Shroud after it was damaged in a church blaze in 1532.

Rogers said that his analysis of other samples, based on levels of a chemical called vanillin that results from the decomposition of flax and other plants, showed the Shroud could be "between 1,300 and 3,000 years old."[/quote]

[fides quarens intellectum]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=82581"]here we go again...[/url]

[CatherineM]

It wouldn't make much sense to have developed this process to sell to tourists since the images aren't really visible to the naked eye, and there is only one. Lots of cheaper, easier, more sellable things would have been available to merchants back then.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

How dare you question what you are told...who do you think you are and what are you doing searching for the truth? How dare you. haha ;-)

[Paladin D]

Here's something to think about.

For those who are familiar, there is an *original* image depiction of the Divine Mercy of Jesus that was comissioned by St. Faustina, in which she instructed the artists (she went through multiple ones) in extreme detail on what He looked like in her apparitions (especially the face). Interestingly, the facial structure that was depicted by St. Faustina is identical to the one on the Shroud of Turin. An exact match.

I saw this on a Divine Mercy documentary.

[Paladin D]

Some more about what I said earlier:

[url="http://thedivinemercy.org/momm/divinecoincidence.php"]http://thedivinemercy.org/momm/divinecoincidence.php[/url]

[quote]A Divine Coincidence?
By: Fr. Seraphim, M.I.C.
The sacred image of The Divine Mercy was commissioned by our Lord, who appeared in a vision to Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska on February 22, 1931. What Saint Faustina witnessed she described in her spiritual journal in these words: “In the evening, when I was in my cell, I saw the Lord Jesus clothed in a white robe. One hand was raised in the gesture of blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast. From beneath the garment, slightly drawn aside at the breast there were emanating two large rays, one red the other pale…” In Christ’s own words, “The two rays denote blood and water. The pale ray stands for the water, which makes souls righteous. The red ray stands for the blood which is the life of souls” (§299). These represent the basic sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist which operate in believers the fruit of the paschal mysteries. Along with the vision came this command: “I desire that there be a Feast of Mercy. I want this image, which you will paint with a brush, to be solemnly blessed on the first Sunday after Easter; that Sunday is to be the Feast of Mercy” (§49).

The Face
There exists a hand-written letter in which a “Sister Julianna” recorded a conference on the origins of The Divine Mercy message, image, and devotion given by Saint Faustina’s spiritual director, the Servant of God Reverend Michael Sopoeko, in May of 1940. From it we learn that Sister Faustina was never pleased with the image, maintaining that it was ugly. But one day, after the artist had already repainted the face of Christ for at least the tenth time, she came to the studio and announced that Jesus said to leave the image in the state it was in. Quoting the Lord she added: “It isn’t good, but it will do; you don’t have to change it anymore.”

The reason for the strenuous effort that was required to depict the Lord’s face in this particular image would remain locked in mystery for two generations. For it was only recently [1996] that a larger image, printed from the 1931 photographic plates of the Shroud of Turin, was placed by chance on top of a comparably-sized poster of the Divine Mercy image painted in Vilnius in 1934 with the result that, when the superimposed images were unexpectedly backlit, they revealed a startling coincidence.

By an eminent photographer’s calculations, the face on the original Divine Mercy image was discerned to be smaller in size than that on the shroud. But, when the photo of the Divine Mercy painting was enlarged so that the outer line of the hair on the head matched the same line on the shroud image, the result was remarkable. [b]It was found that on both images there is the same distance between the pupils; the nose is of practically the same length; the form of the lips is identical; the moustache and the beard are of the same cut; the hair falls at the sides in the same way. All these points allow for a practically perfect correspondence between the two faces. [/b]

It does not appear that the Vilnius artist had a copy of the photo of the Shroud of Turin taken in 1931, the same year Saint Faustina was granted her vision and the mission associated with it. His need continually to alter the countenance on the painting because of the visionary’s disapproval of his attempts would attest to that. [b]How, then, could an image, completed in 1934 after repeated alterations to the face, have features that matched so well those of “the man of the shroud of Turin,” found on a burial cloth now known to be at least two thousand years old?[/b]

The Turin photographer, who verified this surprising match, felt that a composite photo of it would not be liked, because the eyes appeared to be directed downward. Made aware of the fact that in her directions Saint Faustina insisted on the feature and that in her Diary our Lord is quoted as saying, “My gaze from this image is like the gaze from the cross,” he changed his mind and declared the divine mercy image “miraculous.”

This special image shows the Lord’s right hand raised in a gesture of blessing and absolution – priestly ministries. The eyes of the Lord in the painting and the composite image gaze upon us as from the cross, compassionately - “Father, forgive them…” Jesus offers us the life-giving and light-bearing rays of his mercy. They emerge from his wounded side and from his opened heart - so prominently evident on the shroud - to replace, to transform out hearts of stone. For the Savior offers to the recipients of his paschal sacraments on Divine Mercy Sunday the promised fruits of his passion and the glory of his resurrection – the complete remission of sins and punishment - at-one-ment with God, the assurance of his unending love for us.[/quote]

Edited November 26, 2008 by Paladin D

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1711339' date='Nov 26 2008, 08:16 AM']Here's something to think about.

For those who are familiar, there is an *original* image depiction of the Divine Mercy of Jesus that was comissioned by St. Faustina, in which she instructed the artists (she went through multiple ones) in extreme detail on what He looked like in her apparitions (especially the face). Interestingly, the facial structure that was depicted by St. Faustina is identical to the one on the Shroud of Turin. An exact match.[/quote]

not to mention the countless icons and depictions of Jesus through the centuries with the same facial features as the man on the Shroud...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1711339' date='Nov 26 2008, 10:16 AM']Here's something to think about.

For those who are familiar, there is an *original* image depiction of the Divine Mercy of Jesus that was comissioned by St. Faustina, in which she instructed the artists (she went through multiple ones) in extreme detail on what He looked like in her apparitions (especially the face). Interestingly, the facial structure that was depicted by St. Faustina is identical to the one on the Shroud of Turin. An exact match.

I saw this on a Divine Mercy documentary.[/quote]


Yep. And also the famous Pantocrator icon image from St. Catherine's monastery on Mount Sinai. It too is a *perfect* match of the face of the Shroud of Turin.

[Justin86]

As the old cadence goes...

here we go again
same old **** again

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1714617' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:07 PM']Yep. And also the famous Pantocrator icon image from St. Catherine's monastery on Mount Sinai. It too is a *perfect* match of the face of the Shroud of Turin.[/quote]
I never knew that! In fact, I didn't know that the Divine Mercy image also matched. Very awesome.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1714681' date='Nov 30 2008, 01:20 PM']I never knew that! In fact, I didn't know that the Divine Mercy image also matched. Very awesome. [/quote]

It is quite extraordinary, really. There are some common things in all the images that you can trace to the Shroud of Turin, such as the hairline, the long nose and the large eyes.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1714702' date='Nov 30 2008, 05:31 PM']It is quite extraordinary, really. There are some common things in all the images that you can trace to the Shroud of Turin, such as the hairline, the long nose and the large eyes.[/quote]
I'll have to look at the images more, but I'm intrigued.

[mortify]

Even if the Shroud were from the 13th century, many facts reveal it is of miraculous nature. There is no satisfactory explanation for how the image appeared on the shroud, why the shroud contains pollen found in Israel, why the weaving style resembles clothe that was found in Masada, etc.

Edited November 30, 2008 by mortify

[Apotheoun]

Whether it is authentic or not it is still an icon of the Lord, and it can be venerated as such.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1714989' date='Nov 30 2008, 03:07 PM']Whether it is authentic or not it is still an icon of the Lord, and it can be venerated as such.[/quote]

That's what my father told me. He said that even if it wasn't real, all the prayers said before it have made it holy.