So Very Confused!

[Carmeliteheart726]

Wow, I am really confused right now! As most of you know, I have been discerning with the Carmelites for a few months now. I have visited one community (the Carmelites DCJ in St. Louis) and knew it was not a match. I was planning to visit the Brooklyn Carmelite nuns this coming year.

But, I went on a retreat this weekend. This was the second annual retreat that I've been on of this nature. The Franciscan Friars and Sisters of the Renewal were there again this year. I remembered how much I was attracted to their charism at the beginning of my discernment. The convictions I have felt in my soul match their life and charism very much; I think more so than the Carmelites So I am confused about my discernment.

I wonder if I might have ignored the Holy Spirit telling me that I was not called to the Carmelites. I received an email from a Carmel Superior (not naming which) asking what attracted me so much to Carmel. I wrote back trying to express what it was that made me attracted to them. She wrote back and said that she was sorry, but she shared with novice mistress what I wrote and both of them agreed that I did not have a genuine vocation to Carmel and perhaps I should look elsewhere. I had not met this nun, so I did not believe her to be correct. Now I'm wondering if it was something I should have thought about further?

It's happened before where I found out that an order I was greatly interested in did not accept me, but then I found out that they were a renegade order and not in full communion with Rome. Could it have been the Holy Spirit the second time?? Could I be wrong about my Carmelite vocation?? I would like input on this! I am so confused!

The Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal are really what I feel I could live as. Their charism calls to me, and I think maybe I am a Franciscan?? There are some similarities between me and St. Francis, but I don't know if they are just superficial or a "God-incidence."

My middle name is Frances.
I love animals, and always have.
I am a musician, too, and the Franciscan Friars and Sisters of the Renewal are known for their great liturgical music.

I think maybe I am called to the CFRs. I was so inspired and captivated by Fr. Glenn Sudano's homilies during the retreat. I just really feel like I could live their life.

[Thomist-in-Training]

*cough* Does it involve guitars? if so, it's not liturgical music. *cough* sorry, must have a cold!

Well, it's hard to tell from your post since we don't know too much about you, but you just want general comments of course. Here are mine...

Franciscans are very devoted to poverty, to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and also to Our Lady under the title Queen of Angels, you probably know better than I what the CFR sisters do; simplicity, humility, Christ Crucified and the Christ Child... not to say that the Carmelites don't love these things as well! And I am just beginning to learn about Franciscans relatively speaking, perhaps someone has more to offer here. I think there is less of a "structured" spirituality perhaps, as opposed to St Teresa who had a very organized idea of the spiritual life (according to my very basic understanding).

I think both Carmelites and Franciscans love detachment and accepting suffering in union with Christ (as all Christians should, but especially these two orders it seems to me--look up the story from the Fioretti or Little Flowers of St Francis about "Perfect Joy"--it's not easy, but that is really what St Francis wanted!)

Don't forget there are also the Poor Clares (Colettine in Roswell & other places; Perpetual Adoration; other sorts too) and different kinds of Franciscan Sisters like the brand-spanking new (and very solid and fervent and charming) [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=79684&hl=Franciscans+Immaculate"]Franciscans of the Immaculate[/url] and teaching sisters (we have some near us in Texas who started out in... Germany or Austria or Poland a hundred years ago).

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1710239' date='Nov 25 2008, 12:38 AM']*cough* Does it involve guitars? if so, it's not liturgical music. *cough* sorry, must have a cold!

Well, it's hard to tell from your post since we don't know too much about you, but you just want general comments of course. Here are mine...

Franciscans are very devoted to poverty, to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and also to Our Lady under the title Queen of Angels, you probably know better than I what the CFR sisters do; simplicity, humility, Christ Crucified and the Christ Child... not to say that the Carmelites don't love these things as well! And I am just beginning to learn about Franciscans relatively speaking, perhaps someone has more to offer here. I think there is less of a "structured" spirituality perhaps, as opposed to St Teresa who had a very organized idea of the spiritual life (according to my very basic understanding).

I think both Carmelites and Franciscans love detachment and accepting suffering in union with Christ (as all Christians should, but especially these two orders it seems to me--look up the story from the Fioretti or Little Flowers of St Francis about "Perfect Joy"--it's not easy, but that is really what St Francis wanted!)

Don't forget there are also the Poor Clares (Colettine in Roswell & other places; Perpetual Adoration; other sorts too) and different kinds of Franciscan Sisters like the brand-spanking new (and very solid and fervent and charming) [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=79684&hl=Franciscans+Immaculate"]Franciscans of the Immaculate[/url] and teaching sisters (we have some near us in Texas who started out in... Germany or Austria or Poland a hundred years ago).[/quote]

Actually, it really isn't liturgical music. They just love to sing about our Lord. LOL. I just really have never understood St. Teresa of Avila that well at all, no matter how hard I try, I just can't wrap my mind around her way of thinking. I can, however, wrap my mind around what St. Francis wanted. I think that the less structured environment might be good for me because I grow in several different ways. The one thing that really stirs the love inside of me for the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal (and the friars) is their deep commitment to the Eucharist. That is something I have been searching for throughout my whole discernment. I've been searching for a way to constantly grow in His presence while also fulfilling His request to give myself over to Him in religious life.

I was considering the Poor Clares for a while. I really admire their way of life and St. Clare, but admiration can only get me so far. I've researched other Franciscan orders before throughout my discernment, but the CFRs are the only ones who really grab my attention.

Sr. Agnes gave such an amazing talk to the women at the retreat while Br. John Mary gave a talk to the men. Both were about chastity and growing in relationship with the opposite sex or living chaste in your state of life. She gave such a powerful example of the model of our womanhood, the Blessed Virgin Mary. She said that this "blessed among women" was the model of all sacred womanhood and femininity. She also stated that this is how we should give ourselves to God. All of us women are princesses in the eyes of the Father and we should not settle for anything less from anyone else. I have never really thought of Mary in that way before, but I absolutely adore Mary. She is the way to Christ since she gave birth to the Church! I really strive to imitate her, especially in her spot under the cross, keeping vigil over her Holy Son.

The more I consider my discernment, the more I realize that the paths I have followed might have been leading me to the Franciscans all along. I don't really know how to explain it. Someone told me yesterday that learning about the Carmelites is a good way to bridge to the Franciscans. A Poor Clare nun told her that their spirituality is very much the same.

I am trying my best to look beyond the superficials of the order like the habit and their ministry and go deep into the heart of the order to understand their charism at its core. I think one of the mistakes I have made throughout my discernment is constantly looking and focusing on the superficial aspects. When I get past that, and compare my attraction to the Carmelites with my attraction to the Franciscans, the Franciscans are much more deeply rooted in my soul. I think I am becoming certain of my answer. I just can't believe it's been almost a year since I first started discerning! (Dec. 1, 2007)

Thanks for your answer! You are in my prayers! God bless you!

Edited November 25, 2008 by Carmeliteheart726

[tinytherese]

I'd say to speak with the vocation director about what attracts you to the franciscan community and if that goes well you can request to have an extended visit with them.

If I may ask, what was it that attracted to the carmelite order? You could bring that up with the vocation director for the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal. She must hear of this kind of confusion from other inquiereres.

[Gemma]

[quote name='Carmeliteheart726' post='1710190' date='Nov 25 2008, 12:29 AM']Wow, I am really confused right now! As most of you know, I have been discerning with the Carmelites for a few months now. I have visited one community (the Carmelites DCJ in St. Louis) and knew it was not a match. I was planning to visit the Brooklyn Carmelite nuns this coming year.

But, I went on a retreat this weekend. This was the second annual retreat that I've been on of this nature. The Franciscan Friars and Sisters of the Renewal were there again this year. I remembered how much I was attracted to their charism at the beginning of my discernment. The convictions I have felt in my soul match their life and charism very much; I think more so than the Carmelites So I am confused about my discernment.

I wonder if I might have ignored the Holy Spirit telling me that I was not called to the Carmelites. I received an email from a Carmel Superior (not naming which) asking what attracted me so much to Carmel. I wrote back trying to express what it was that made me attracted to them. She wrote back and said that she was sorry, but she shared with novice mistress what I wrote and both of them agreed that I did not have a genuine vocation to Carmel and perhaps I should look elsewhere. I had not met this nun, so I did not believe her to be correct. Now I'm wondering if it was something I should have thought about further?

It's happened before where I found out that an order I was greatly interested in did not accept me, but then I found out that they were a renegade order and not in full communion with Rome. Could it have been the Holy Spirit the second time?? Could I be wrong about my Carmelite vocation?? I would like input on this! I am so confused!

The Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal are really what I feel I could live as. Their charism calls to me, and I think maybe I am a Franciscan?? There are some similarities between me and St. Francis, but I don't know if they are just superficial or a "God-incidence."

My middle name is Frances.
I love animals, and always have.
I am a musician, too, and the Franciscan Friars and Sisters of the Renewal are known for their great liturgical music.

I think maybe I am called to the CFRs. I was so inspired and captivated by Fr. Glenn Sudano's homilies during the retreat. I just really feel like I could live their life.[/quote]

The Holy Ghost works on attraction, and grace builds on nature. If you can't understand St. Teresa of Avila, but you feel an affinity with St. Francis, then you're likely called to be Franciscan.

However, until you step onto the CFR's property, you won't know. Go for a visit, and talk to their vocation director.

Blessings,
Gemma

[alicemary]

You are limiting yourself far too much. Stop thinking I will only look at Carmelites or I will only look at Francisicans. Step back a minute and look at what you are doing and why you are doing it. You are not in a store and looking at the different colors of an outfit that interests you. You are firstly, and should be the only consideration, looking for Jesus in your life. He is the only focus.
Whether you chose to serve Him in religiious life takes time, patience and alot of miles on your car. Go visiting. Visit as many different orders you can. Do not limit yourself to any one order. Just go exploring, with no strings attached. You are young enough yet, take your time, slow it down. go visiting, spend some weekends, look around. See what the community is all about. Do not dwell so much on their habits, or charism, dwell on what makes them tick. How do they live? Does their way of praying interest you? Are you attracted to the work they do? HOw do they treat each other?
After a year or so of looking about, try and see if any of the orders attract you. Take your time with that too. It seems you want the answers now, and that is not going to happen.
Develop your prayer life. Develop your career. Develop your social life, enjoy your family and friends. Make this a time of growth. The answers will come but you must have the maturity needed to grasp it.
Good luck, and I join you in prayers!!
Alicemary

[toservelove]

I thought I was destined to be Benedictine. I loved the Monasteries I visited, and I especially loved the liturgy. But, there was always something that didn't click with me...something that would make me feel that it was not right. I also fought those feelings for a long time (maybe it's just me, maybe it's because I haven't given in to God completely, maybe, maybe, maybe...) In the end I decided to follow a good friends advice--follow peace. If you go here and you don't feel peace, go a different way. If you go there and you don't feel peace, go a different way. If you go here and you feel peace, keep going! Well, I did, and now I'll be joining a Dominican group where everything seemed to click.

You're right that you should look deeply. Look deeply into the community and into your heart. Try to let your feelings as well as your mind lead you. (That was a real struggle for me as I can over analyze things. I don't know if that's true for you, but if it is try to let your heart lead.)

By the way, it took me over three years, and I'm an "older vocation". One year is not really that long. I would say you should visit several communities, but not so many that you become overwhelmed.

I've found that one thing discernment demands is the building up of the virtue of trust in the Lord. You obviously have a deep relationship with God, you love Him and desire to do His will, now relax and trust that God is leading you where you need to go through all of these experiences.

God bless

[praying4carmel]

My prayers are with you as you discern. It really is what the Lord wants not what we want. Discernment actively took almost 2 years for me before I entered. I visited several places under the direction of my Spiritual Director, a Dominican Sister.

I still think of myself with a Carmelite heart in many ways, but the Lord put me in St. Benedict's house. There is a wonderful book on the Rule of Benedict and the Little Way of St. Therese that was a great help to me.

So, please be patient with yourself and this is the trick, try not to "try too hard". walks, doing things without thinking about the topic will help you discern. The Lord will absolutely put you where He wants you if you are open to His will. Many Sr's I know have told me they were looking at this or that order and the Lord put them somewhere else. The Peace in my Heart, the solid peace, makes me know that I am where I am meant to be. God's grace will never fail and your foot will not strike a stone. You will not stumble, though you may have some trials. Any thing good comes thru effort on our part.

God Bless.
+
Nancy

[Carmeliteheart726]

I do want to be clear that I am not searching to join an order right now. I still have debts to pay off and I need to be off my medication for at least a year before I even think about joining one. I have tried to let God be in control my entire discernment, so hopefully, I have only done what He has asked me to. I know the Holy Spirit was with me this past weekend because I felt nothing but peace and happiness the entire time. So that's what really gets me praying because if I was with the Spirit this weekend and I felt attracted to their order, then I wonder if I should look further. I only want to do His will, not mine. One way to know that I haven't been doing my will is that I really never wanted to be cloistered, but because He wanted me to look at that as an option and forget my own selfish desires, I gave my will to Him! I've never felt more at peace with my discernment than when I did that.

Believe me, I will not be looking at this lightly in any way. I look at this as serious dating. You can't date one man and think him to be your husband when you've never met anyone else. It never works. You have to date at least a few guys to find the right one (if you are that blessed). That's what I know I need to do to look at either monasteries or convents. I have only looked at one order and knew it wasn't the right one. Although it was beautiful and I adored their life, it did not feel like the place that Jesus wanted me to be.

I hope I have not been limiting myself to just one order. Even when I thought I was called to the Carmelites, I still looked at other orders like Dominicans, Benedictines, Cistercians, Franciscans, etc. I believe that Jesus works on attraction since I've only gone where I have really been attracted and found peace.

I plan to visit the Carmelite monastery in Brooklyn this next year, and while I am there, I will visit one of the CFRs' convents as well. I think I have a pretty good understanding of their life and charism but I still love reading as much as I can about them.

Thank you all for your advice! God bless you!

[RosaMystica]

It sounds like you've found peace with the Franciscans. If you know where your heart and peace truly are then don't give another order any thought because that may cause your confusion to last much longer and may create disorder within your soul. I dealt with confusion between two orders for a very long time and once I admitted to myself where I truly thought God was calling me and where my heart truly was I finally had peace. You're blessed to have found peace early on in your discernment!

You're in my prayers!

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='MandyKhatoon' post='1710792' date='Nov 25 2008, 02:43 PM']It sounds like you've found peace with the Franciscans. If you know where your heart and peace truly are then don't give another order any thought because that may cause your confusion to last much longer and may create disorder within your soul. I dealt with confusion between two orders for a very long time and once I admitted to myself where I truly thought God was calling me and where my heart truly was I finally had peace. You're blessed to have found peace early on in your discernment!

You're in my prayers![/quote]

God bless you, MandyKhatoon! I've been praying to St. Francis daily since I've been on retreat and have become more and more at peace with the idea. I'm not relying on myself, because I am weak and selfish. I am only relying on Christ to bring me where He wants me. I really believe that it's between the Franciscans and Carmelites now. The Capuchin Franciscans (CFRs follow the Capuchins) place in me the peace that I've been longing for. However beautiful the Carmelites are, I've still felt like I've been searching for something and I don't know what. I have a long way to go. I am nowhere near finished yet. But you are right about me truly finding peace. The more I let go and let God take control of my discernment, the more I realize how much the CFRs are what I might have been searching for all along.

If you don't mind my asking, what two orders were you discerning and which one did you finally rest on? I'm sure I've probably read it on here, but I don't remember LOL.

God bless you all!

[Mari Therese]

Do you have a spiritual director? I know that discernment seems so jumbled up sometimes, but you have to chill because if you put your vocation in a box (i.e. just carmelites/franciscans), there might not be room for God's will in there. I agree with the rest who say you should branch out. Start asking yourself what talents did God give? What are you already passionate about? Developping a pattern of prayer is super important(even when it's hard to pray). Does God want you to be contemplative, active or somthing in between? Strive to be faithful in matters at work, in family, at school, and most importantly in your relationship with God.

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='Mari Therese' post='1710971' date='Nov 25 2008, 08:30 PM']Do you have a spiritual director? I know that discernment seems so jumbled up sometimes, but you have to chill because if you put your vocation in a box (i.e. just carmelites/franciscans), there might not be room for God's will in there. I agree with the rest who say you should branch out. Start asking yourself what talents did God give? What are you already passionate about? Developping a pattern of prayer is super important(even when it's hard to pray). Does God want you to be contemplative, active or somthing in between? Strive to be faithful in matters at work, in family, at school, and most importantly in your relationship with God.[/quote]

No, I don't have a spiritual director I keep searching, but I cannot find one that has said yes yet. I am planning to write one of the CFR friars that I got to know this weekend and see if he can be my spiritual director by mail. At least I'll have one. It was actually my mom's idea because I told her I liked him so much. She suggested I write him and find out.

I have a very hard time expressing the way my discernment is. If God says that He doesn't want me to consider just the Franciscans/Carmelites, then I will most definitely listen. I am not putting my discernment in a box, believe me. This is totally about branching out of my comfort zones and doing what He asks.

I have developed a pattern of prayer of praying when I wake up and before I go to sleep. I feel incomplete if I don't. Sometimes, I pray with a prayer book, but mostly, I pray from my heart. My passions are music, animals, helping the unfortunate and elderly, Adoration, the Mass, and prayer. I love to journal! I have really tried to journal a lot lately so if I felt something, I would remember it.

Two interesting things to note:

I told my friend that I was scared of being cloistered. God lead me to the Discalced Carmelites so I had to forget about my fear of being enclosed.

I told my sister I had a weakness about talking to others about God. The Franciscans of the Renewal bring God to the streets, that's what they are famous for. Perhaps He wants me to work on that weakness too?

All I know is, I am NOT trying to work from my own selfish desires. This is strictly about finding Him and working on what He wants me to work on. Wherever He leads me, I will follow!

As I said before, I fully intend to be serious about this. I am definitely not making a commitment to any one order without meeting them. Just because I feel close to the CFRs on a retreat, it doesn't really mean that I am meant to be one. But, I think it's more than that...

[she_who_is_not]

God bless you and grant you peace! God has planned beautiful things for you so hang in there and keep your heart in total and complete submission. Experiencing confusion is an opportunity to meditate on the Passion.

[Carmeliteheart726]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1711026' date='Nov 25 2008, 09:07 PM']God bless you and grant you peace! God has planned beautiful things for you so hang in there and keep your heart in total and complete submission. Experiencing confusion is an opportunity to meditate on the Passion.[/quote]

Thank you, she_who_is_not. I believe that. I also believe that the gift of being called to religious life has obtained for me many graces even though I am unworthy to receive them. I have grown so much in the past year, it's mind-boggling! I have no answers for why Jesus wants me in His service, I just know He is calling me to something greater than myself. This is the best gift I have ever been given. I have fallen head over heels in love with my Savior and I wouldn't trade that for anything!