Can Ppl With Ssa Be Admitted To Seminary?

[ironmonk]

Here are a few comments and their links:

[b]"Men with Homosexual Tendencies Not Fit for Priesthood, Says Vatican"[/b]

A homosexual person, or one with homosexual tendencies, "is not fit" to receive priestly ordination, says the Vatican.

This position is stated in a letter written by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, published in the November-December issue of the dicastery's bulletin "Notitiae." The letter was in response to a bishop's query.

... "Ordination to the diaconate and the priesthood of homosexual men or men with homosexual tendencies is absolutely inadvisable and imprudent and, from the pastoral point of view, very risky. [u]A homosexual person, or one with a homosexual tendency is not, therefore, fit to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.[/u]"



[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=28743"]http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=28743[/url]

[color=blue]It seems that wherever you got the quote, it might have been edited.[/color]

[b]"Guadalajara Cardinal´s Comments on Scandals Involving Priests"[/b]

[u]Persons with homosexual tendencies have always been denied entry to the priesthood.[/u] The selection of candidates to the priesthood is carefully watched in seminaries, but sometimes the aspirants´ pretence and concealment or the negligence of educators, can result in admitting those who are not worthy to priestly ordination.

[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=21884"]http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=21884[/url]




Now, "not fit" should not be taken the wrong way. For example, I would not be fit to live in a dorm full of single women. We all have our cross to bear. The Vatican has clearly stated that Priesthood is not the vocation call that men with ssa are meant for. There are many vocations that they can live their faith in.


God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

Edited March 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[Good Friday]

[quote]The Vatican has clearly stated that Priesthood is not the vocation call that men with ssa are meant for. There are many vocations that they can live their faith in.[/quote]
And they are... ?

[mulls]

i'm wondering what the main problem with this is....



would it be that those with ssa would make for unfit priests, or is it that actually being in a seminary would cause too much temptation?

if the latter was the case, what would be the difference between living in a seminary and living in a college dorm?

[Good Friday]

[quote]would it be that those with ssa would make for unfit priests, or is it that actually being in a seminary would cause too much temptation?

if the latter was the case, what would be the difference between living in a seminary and living in a college dorm?[/quote]
The latter is supposed to be the case Mulls. Allegedly, we are not capable of controlling our lusts (this is what members of the Church say, by the way, and not the Church herself), so we shouldn't be in seminary.

I have asked the same question you've asked many times (the one about living in a college dorm), and my response has been the sound of crickets chirping. The logical conclusion is that if one is to be barred from the seminary because living with other men is too much of a temptation, then one must also be barred from living on a college campus, going to the gym, taking phys. ed. in school, playing sports, etc.

Not many are willing to go to this logical conclusion, though, because it would expose their bigotry against those with SSA, so I get no response when I ask: "How is the temptation of seminary any different than living in a college dorm?"

I expect that we'll get no answer this time either, and that the question will be danced around.

[Good Friday]

I didn't mean what I just said, so please disregard it. As one could imagine, this is still a touchy subject for me. My apologies to anyone I've offended, and I'll not be participating in this thread any further.

[popestpiusx]

In case Mr. good friday is still viewing this thread I would like to answer his "unanswered challenge". I must admit a certain amount of ignorance about the college dorm example. I am not sure if you mean that there is no difference between a man (ssa) living in an all male dorm or a hetrosexual male living in a co-ed dorm. In either case, it is to be avoided. Co-ed dorms are hardly conducive to ones salvation and for a gay man to live in an all male dorm would be dangerous as well. He should attempt, to the best of his ability, to aquire some other means of shelter. All things must be subservient to ones salvation. Bigotry???? No indeed. No man has a right to be ordained. The Church alone is the judge of who shall recieve such a burden.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Mar 14 2004, 11:44 PM'] And they are... ? [/quote]
I think that a good example would be Opus Dei. Spreading the gospel as laymen in the places where we work.


[quote]The latter is supposed to be the case Mulls. Allegedly, we are not capable of controlling our lusts (this is what members of the Church say, by the way, and not the Church herself), so we shouldn't be in seminary.[/quote]

I don't think it's that they believe men with ssa are "not capable of controlling their lusts". Everyone should avoid whatever tempts them. Lust is a strong temptation for anyone brother.


[quote]Not many are willing to go to this logical conclusion, though, because it would expose their bigotry against those with SSA, so I get no response when I ask: "How is the temptation of seminary any different than living in a college dorm?"[/quote]

I think I understand where you are coming from, but there are similarities and there are differences. It would be easier for someone with ssa to live solo instead of a dorm, especially at college age when hormones are raging and changes are strong it would be best avoided... but some temptations can't be avoided.

The difference is a college dorm and a seminary I think would be that in a seminary "love" is a major topic. Love is a strong emotion and some people have a hard time seperating love and lust. Lust has been the downfall of many men. It's human nature. Opposite sex attration and ssa people alike have had their downfall to lust.

With love being key in Christian teaching, and being around what someone with ssa would see as a great temptation, could and has caused major problems as we have seen in some seminaries here in the USA. I've even heard of seminaries that it's almost expected to be involved in ssa acts - I don't know how true this is, but I did read it somewhere. God is a very emotional subject unlike math, science, etc... Also, in a college dorm it is less likely that someone with ssa (if not open about it) would encounter others in the dorm with the same weakness (provided that they were not open about it). There is a different focus in a college dorm and there is opposite sex interaction during the day. In a seminary where someone with ssa would be around men 24/7 and possibly others with ssa, someone that is weaker could cause someone that is stronger in regards to that tempation, to fall.

Satan attacks us all... especially those in the seminary and on the holy road. Yes, many men with ssa can control their lusts, but there are some that can't. Those that can't could be a stumbling block for the ones that can.

With my own experiance when I was in my late teens early twenties, I would not have sinned like I did if I was not strongly approached and alone with the girls. Lust is a strong temptation that is hard to overcome.


God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[BLAZEr]

Ironmonk, surprise surprise I know, but I have to disagree.

First of all, it seems absurd to me that people with SSA would not be fit in a seminary because they will discuss Love and God. I went to Notre Dame, and in the Dorms we probably discussed love and God as often as we discussed math and politics. Still, I don't think it would have been an environment where a guy would have been tempted to commit homosexual acts. I think the reason is simply because a vibrant masculinity was the dominant culture in the dorm. It wasn't a healthy masculinity. It was somewhat sex obsessed and overy crude, but it was still masculine.

When I was in the seminary, the environment was still healthy and masculine, but less sex obsessed and definitely less crude. I know several guys in formation who I have found out later were struggling with SSA. One was ordained a priest, one will be next year, and 5 of them left the seminary. Both of those who are or will be priests were exemplary men who I was surprised to learn had this struggle. They certainly dealt with it differently than the 5 who left or were dismissed. There was certainly NOT any pressure to participate in the campy "gay" culture that I read about in Michael Rose's book, Goodbye Good Men. In fact, I would say the opposite culture existed. There was pressure to demonstrate your masculinity and your athletic prowess or comptetiveness.

I think that the culture that I experienced in the Seminary would be a healthy place for men to learn to live chastely, whether they had SSA or not. However, I do think that if there were people there who were "out" or who were expressive (even if not sexually) of their SSA then it would have been a difficult place. First, because this would have caused friction and destabilization to the life. And second, because it would have made all the other guys self-concious and uncomfortable, and guarded.

This is why I think it depends on the individual case. I also think this is where Fr. Groeschel's distinction about "identification" with SSA comes into play. Some guys, for various reasons, identify their 'self' more acutely to their sexuality. This true for both hetero and homosexual men. Those who have SSA can deal with their SSA proportionately to how much they identify themselves with their sexuality. I think it also affects how much they identify themselves with a masculine image of man.

Herein lies, what I believe is the Vatican's position on ordaining men with SSA. The issue is not, nor can it be, seminary formation. The Vatican doesn't caution against ordaining men with SSA because they will be in a seminary with all men and therefore risk temptation. Rather, the issue seems to be whether a man with SSA can fully integrate his identy with that of the priesthood. This is for two reasons, primarily, I think. First, Christ is fully human, but his humanity being perfect is fully masculine and WHOLELY masculine. It can be said that all men are insufficienlty masculine when compared to Christ. This means that in order for a man to integrate the ministerial identity of Christ he needs to be able to identify with the sacrificial sonship of Christ. This includes the forsaking of a wife and child, which the man desires. It also means imaging to the Church the Headship of Christ.

The Church seems to be saying that this very identity of the Priest requires a healthy and integrated sexuality that is ordered to its natural ends. I'm not quite sure why this is necessary, but this is what, in my opinion, the Church is suggesting. She is not suggesting anything definitively. She has not made an irreversable or ex-cathedra statement on this, so I maintain that it is a PRUDENTIAL decision.

The short of it is, Undercover, that the Church herself, through her Bishops and priests can offer you guidance on this. If you feel like you are being called by Christ to be a priest, then follow this vocation. Don't let a bunch of lay people who do not have the charism of state (authority) to tell you not to. However, as your pursue this, make sure you are honest with the vocationd director about your Same-sex attraction. If you are completely honest, then Christ will make clear your vocation to you. If he is not calling you to be a priest, and you are open and honest and sincere in your pursuit, then you will not beomce a priest and he will open to you your actual vocation.

GoodFriday, I hope this kinda of respons to your statement as well.

As for the recommendation that Opus Dei is a way for a person who lives with SSA to live their vocation, well, I don't know if this would work either. The Numeraries of Opus Dei live in single-sex communities also. I'm not sure their formation would be for those who have SSA. More information on this would be appreciated if you can supply it, Ironmonk.

[PedroX]

Blazer,

I think you may have posted the most intelligent, rational discussion this topic has ever seen. May God bless and reward you.

peace...

[Adeodatus]

BLAZEr,

Well done on an excellent post! PedroX is right about yours being the "most intelligent, rational discussion this topic has ever seen". May God bless you........

[Guest lundercovera]

interesting....

i still have no idea my vocation and have some inhibitions about whether or not i should go to seminary... but i must say very interesting.

+~*Wherever God Leads Me*~+

JMJ

[vianney]

Some seminaries are open to the idea others are not. The one i am attending is not letting open homosexuals into the seminary.

[Good Friday]

I know I said I'm not going to participate in this thread anymore, but I just wanted to thank everyone -- particularly Ironmonk and BLAZEr -- for their reasonable responses.

[BLAZEr]

GoodFriday, I love you . . .

Everytime you say you're not going to comment anymore, I just sit and wait for you to say "just one more thing." I really love that about you!!

Because I'm the same way, I think.

[Good Friday]

[quote]Everytime you say you're not going to comment anymore, I just sit and wait for you to say "just one more thing." I really love that about you!![/quote]
It's the mixture of Jewish and Irish in me. As often as I try to, I can never just [i]shut up[/i].