Possible Ex-communication

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1707988' date='Nov 22 2008, 06:16 PM']Or its another excuse for the self righteous to pat themselves on the back.[/quote]
Yeah, that's probably it.

[Luthien]

Im sorry, but if I hear one more person bring up the death penalty as being equal with the evil of abortion, Im going to flip.

To compare someone who has killed, raped, tortured, to an innocent child in the womb needs their head examined.

[Ash Wednesday]

I think many people misunderstand what it means to uphold the "sanctity of life." This does not mean taking a stance of "never kill anything under any circumstances." If this was the case, then killing in self-defense would be a problem, as would cases where the "just war" theory applies.

[Guest MJReynolds]

The rationale that I am seeing here is that a candidate could have stances that match up quite well with everything that the Catholic Church teaches but abortion and we shouldn't vote for him because of that. Fine. I get it. But I think that you guys have your Catechism a bit off on the Death Penalty. It states that it is only allowed when it must be done in order to protect society. And since we have the means to do that now-a-days without killing a person, it is rendered unnecessary and immoral. So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.

[Luthien]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1709454' date='Nov 24 2008, 01:03 PM']The rationale that I am seeing here is that a candidate could have stances that match up quite well with everything that the Catholic Church teaches but abortion and we shouldn't vote for him because of that. Fine. I get it. But I think that you guys have your Catechism a bit off on the Death Penalty. It states that it is only allowed when it must be done in order to protect society. And since we have the means to do that now-a-days without killing a person, it is rendered unnecessary and immoral. So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.[/quote]


Well I was in a mood last night, so ignore the "flip" comment. I think I said what the catechism says, in so little words. The killing of a dangerous criminal is not always intrinsically evil, while abortion always is intrinically evil.

BTW, people can escape prison.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!! The legality of abortion is an extremely complex issue, that's not just as black and white as overturning Roe v. Wade. I agree with the poster that overturning Roe v. Wade would probably just complicate things more. This is not being "pro-culture of death" its just a legal opinion. I think that there are better ways of ending abortion such as a constitutional amendment, but I agree with the poster in this sense that I think that the first step is to increase the amount of support for pregnent women and ensure that children who are born into this country have adequent support.



This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that[/quote]
Of course there is a legitimate comparision between abortion and the holocaust, abortion is a holocaust! 50 MILLION CHILDREN HAVE DIED, what in the hell [ and I mean truly satanic evil so the term hell is appropriate ] do you call it - population readjustment, exercise of self personal choice etc it is mass murder on a scale of which the Nazis would be proud. Holocause is the ONLY appropriate term for what we are doing to humanity by our evil.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.[/quote]
Voting for Obama is voting for the murder of children, and the murder of our future. There is nothing wrong with a properly enforced death penalty, and that isn't the topic here. We actually do understand the issue, and since we know that the CHURCH teaches abortion is an intrinsic evil and the death penalty is NOT, we vote for life and not the promoters of mass murder such Obama, Pelosi, Biden etc.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1709609' date='Nov 24 2008, 11:54 AM']Of course there is a legitimate comparision between abortion and the holocaust, abortion is a holocaust! 50 MILLION CHILDREN HAVE DIED, what in the hell [ and I mean truly satanic evil so the term hell is appropriate ] do you call it - population readjustment, exercise of self personal choice etc it is mass murder on a scale of which the Nazis would be proud. Holocause is the ONLY appropriate term for what we are doing to humanity by our evil.[/quote]
Which ironically also stirs up emotion in the places where logic is lacking.

[daytondog]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters.[/quote]

Catholics should most definetly be single issue voters; our issue should be opposing evil at all times and at all costs.
Admonishing sinners is considered a spiritual work of mercy, so please understand me when I say that voting for Obama was a mortal sin and you should urgently seek the counsel of a priest and repent.

[daytondog]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1707988' date='Nov 22 2008, 06:16 PM']Or its another excuse for the self righteous to pat themselves on the back.[/quote]

Whose the self-righteous ones??? Those who have to twist themselves into pretzels in order to rationalize voting for Obama smack of self-righteousness as they whag their fingers at the Magesterium and claim they are more catholic than the pope for being "multi-issue voters" and having a more "accurate" "interpretation" of Catholic social teaching, then [i]those[/i] neanderthal Pro-Lifers.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1709454' date='Nov 24 2008, 11:03 AM']The rationale that I am seeing here is that a candidate could have stances that match up quite well with everything that the Catholic Church teaches but abortion and we shouldn't vote for him because of that. Fine. I get it. But I think that you guys have your Catechism a bit off on the Death Penalty. It states that it is only allowed when it must be done in order to protect society. And since we have the means to do that now-a-days without killing a person, it is rendered unnecessary and immoral. So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.[/quote]
Did you even read the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger from the CDF document I provided?

The Catechism acknowledges that capital punishment can have legitimate application - whereas abortion never does.
Cardinal Ratzinger plainly states that the capital punishment issue does not have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.
He concludes:
[b]"There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."[/b]

Are you claiming to have a better understanding of Catholic theology than the Pope himself?
Personally, I find that quite dubious.

You need to get your own head straight before you presume to lecture the rest of us about the Catechism.

Voting for Obama, who promised to pass FOCA into law - which would permanently ban any and all restrictions on abortion, force Catholic hospitals to perform abortion, and have more of your and mine tax dollars pay for baby-killing - is [i][b]far[/b][/i] from supporting a "real culture of life."

It is you, sir, who's a "bit off" and who's being hypocritical here.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Socrates

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening.[/quote]

Wha...wha...what? [b]Even if it turns out[/b]??? You think the child feels no pain by having his or her brains sucked out, from being yanked out of his or her mother, from having his or her skull smashed?

Edited November 25, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1709454' date='Nov 24 2008, 10:03 AM']So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.[/quote]

I don't think abortion is the "easy" issue. In my experience it is considered much more righteous and fashionable to be against the death penalty. Not so with abortion. I happen to agree with John Paul II's writings on limiting the death penalty, but when it comes to lives lost from abortion compared to the death penalty -- there is no comparison.

I don't want to come across as uncharitable, but this issue makes my blood boil and it boggles my mind how anyone, not just you but anyone, who claims to be against abortion can really have a clear conscience and sleep at night knowing that their vote for Obama helps bring about the Freedom of Choice Act and destroys everything that the pro-life movement has fought for.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 10:41 AM']Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening.[/quote]

The level of pain and awareness one way or another does not render it justifiable.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1709454' date='Nov 24 2008, 08:03 AM']The rationale that I am seeing here is that a candidate could have stances that match up quite well with everything that the Catholic Church teaches but abortion and we shouldn't vote for him because of that. Fine. I get it. But I think that you guys have your Catechism a bit off on the Death Penalty. It states that it is only allowed when it must be done in order to protect society. And since we have the means to do that now-a-days without killing a person, it is rendered unnecessary and immoral. So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.[/quote]

Of course, you know, those who have murdered tend to keep murdering, even in prison.

(Of course, anyone who is in prison doesn't deserve the same protections against being murdered as "good" people, do they? Just like those in the womb don't deserve those protections.)