Possible Ex-communication

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

The irony of the pro-choice movement is that the only person whose choice matters is the pregnant woman's choice. The doctors', hospitals', and pharmacists' choices do not matter and they should be forced to cooperate with the woman's wishes. This is one piece of legislation that should truly be classified as pro-abortion. If a mother decides to abort her child, then many who would otherwise want to not perform an abortion will be forced to help under penalty of law. It is one thing to vote against certain legislation that prohibits abortion, especially if the law would violate other legal protections, but I do not see how anyone who claims to be pro-life could vote for this piece of legislation. You will see so many medical professionals stop working at a time when we need more doctors, not fewer.

Edited November 22, 2008 by 1337 k4th0l1x0r

[Apotheoun]

No one ever said that overturning Roe V. Wade was the "only" thing that should be done. That is a straw man argument. Nevertheless, an intrinsically unjust "law" is no law at all, but is an abuse, and as such it must be overturned.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Dave]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!![/quote]

Well you too claim to be pro-life, and yet you've broadcast on here that you voted for Obama and other pro-abortion politicians (sure, you claim their abortion status isn't why you vote for them, as if that makes it OK). So is it any wonder, then, how the gulf between your words and actions causes confusion and scandal to others?

[aalpha1989]

First of all, I don't think it is ever okay to smile at excommunications. Yes they are necessary, and yes it is good that our bishops are acting, but excommunication is serious and it is disgusting that it IS necessary. It is disgusting that members of the Church excommunicate themselves.

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 10:41 AM']This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that[/quote]


He did nothing to diminish the horror of the Holocaust, all he said was that abortion is a greater evil than the Holocaust. He is right. THERE IS NO WORSE MURDER THAN THAT OF A BABY IN THE WOMB. That is the one place a person was made to be perfectly safe, and the mother is the one person who is supposed to always protect her children. The Holocaust was horrendous, but no murder can match ripping a baby literally limb from limb and putting it in a dumpster.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!! The legality of abortion is an extremely complex issue, that's not just as black and white as overturning Roe v. Wade. I agree with the poster that overturning Roe v. Wade would probably just complicate things more. This is not being "pro-culture of death" its just a legal opinion. I think that there are better ways of ending abortion such as a constitutional amendment, but I agree with the poster in this sense that I think that the first step is to increase the amount of support for pregnent women and ensure that children who are born into this country have adequent support.

This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that[/quote]

This is even more shameful than the original post. No wonder so many Catholics are so confused and outside of God's grace.

Tearing children apart limb from limb, burning them to death in acid, and cracking their heads open and sucking out their brains is far more horrible of a way to die than by a firing squad or gas. The attitude of those who favor abortion in any form is also worse than those in Nazi Germany. The Nazi holocaust was horrible, sick, and disgusting. The abortion holocaust is 100x worse. Far fewer adults also died at the hands of Nazi's than children the hands of abortion "doctors". The murder of a race of people is sick enough, the vicious genocide of unborn children is even worse (which is btw, targeted at African Americans and minorities, white superiority and Planned Parenthood are bedfellows). I cannot consider anyone anything other than pro-murder that would not advocate the immediate and full end to all abortions everywhere. Murdering children is never a choice. It's best to start wrapping ones head around that. Abortion is the murder of children.

Overturning Roe V Wade is one vital step. Offering women alternatives already exist to any woman that needs help. There is no complexity to ending abortion - we either do as a country, or we will succumb to the prophetic words of John Paul II - we will have committed collective suicide as a civilization.

[Norseman82]

I suggested this a few weeks ago:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=86999&st=60&p=1694553&#entry1694553"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...p;#entry1694553[/url]

Maybe Cardinal George is lurking here?

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Here's how I see abortion ending...

Scientists are going to find that there really is a gay gene. It will be a simple test to determine if a child will be gay, or at least a probability that the kid will grow up gay. So simple that it can be done before the child is even born. What will eventually happen is a Christian couple will get their unborn child tested and he will test positive for the gay gene. The couple states their intention to abort their child because the child might turn out gay. So many groups will be offended that the only solution will be to outlaw abortion for any reason.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1707228' date='Nov 21 2008, 12:40 PM']Because excommunication is an act of love by the Church towards the person being excommunicated. When excommunication is deserved, such as in these cases, it is loving for the Church to excommunicate said persons. It is an act of love not only towards the individual, but towards the rest of the Church universal by showing what is okay and what is not okay. The people are catechized, and the individual is rebuked for his position and told in a formal way that to continue holding such position is to endanger his eternal soul.

Excommunication when due is charitable.

EDIT: People would smile about said excommunications because it means our bishops are taking the courageous stance to love these people when it is hardest. It is like punishing your children, you hate to do it because they are in a way hurt by it, but deep down it is really one of the greatest acts of love you can give them.[/quote]
Or its another excuse for the self righteous to pat themselves on the back.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1707861' date='Nov 22 2008, 02:14 PM']This is even more shameful than the original post. No wonder so many Catholics are so confused and outside of God's grace.

Tearing children apart limb from limb, burning them to death in acid, and cracking their heads open and sucking out their brains is far more horrible of a way to die than by a firing squad or gas. The attitude of those who favor abortion in any form is also worse than those in Nazi Germany. The Nazi holocaust was horrible, sick, and disgusting. The abortion holocaust is 100x worse. Far fewer adults also died at the hands of Nazi's than children the hands of abortion "doctors". The murder of a race of people is sick enough, the vicious genocide of unborn children is even worse (which is btw, targeted at African Americans and minorities, white superiority and Planned Parenthood are bedfellows). I cannot consider anyone anything other than pro-murder that would not advocate the immediate and full end to all abortions everywhere. Murdering children is never a choice. It's best to start wrapping ones head around that. Abortion is the murder of children.

Overturning Roe V Wade is one vital step. Offering women alternatives already exist to any woman that needs help. There is no complexity to ending abortion - we either do as a country, or we will succumb to the prophetic words of John Paul II - we will have committed collective suicide as a civilization.[/quote]
Amen!

Calling oneself "pro-life" and voting for Obama is like calling oneself "pro-Jew" and voting for Hitler.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Socrates

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707220' date='Nov 21 2008, 01:26 PM']Why the smiley face next to this thread? Even if you believe this is the right thing to do, it's still sad. Why would you be happy about anyone's excommunication? Personally, I would feel awful for these politicians and hope that they changed their minds before it was too late.[/quote]

Would you complain about the smiley face if the politicians were Republicans? Just wondering.

[Guest MJReynolds]

Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.

[Ash Wednesday]

The Church does not approach the death penalty in the same regard as she does abortion. While the Church has become increasingly vocal against its use, for example, in some of the observations of Pope John Paul II -- she does allow for it in some cases in principle, thus not banning it outright.

This, however, is not the same as abortion, which is condemned by the Church in all cases. If we believe that life begins at the moment conception -- not just a cluster of cells but a genuine human being with a soul, then the lives lost at the hand of abortion vastly outnumbers lives lost from the death penalty. The same also goes for war.

This does not mean that issues are not important. But some issues such as abortion are so grave and heinous, unless there is sufficient proportionate reason to support someone like Obama, we can not support them. Otherwise, as Catholics, we cooperate in grave evil.

There really was no proportionate reason that justified a Catholic voting for Obama.

Please don't take this as a "judgment" -- I don't think any critics on here are claiming to know state of any Obama voter's soul. But all the feelgood rhetoric and happy self-talk in the world can not mask the truth that we as Catholics have failed and we will have to answer to God for how we have stood by and let things get to be the way we have.

A day soon will come when the Freedom of Choice Act will be signed into law. Everything that people in the pro-life movement have fought for will be completely wiped away. The possibility of all Catholic healthcare as we know it, completely done away with -- shutting down rather than being forced to perform abortions.

What will Catholics who claim to be in the fight against abortion and on the side of "pro-life" have to say for themselves when they voted for the person that helped put this into place?

Edited November 23, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[Apotheoun]

Abortion as a means or an end is intrinsically immoral because it involves the murder of an innocent human being, while the death penalty is permitted by both scripture and tradition as a form of retributive justice.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.[/quote]
Yeah, and I suppose His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is also being hypocritical about the life issues.

[quote]3.[b] Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.[/b] For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) from a letter to the bishops on worthiness to receive communion, which excommunicated pro-abort politicians, written as Prefect of the CDF.

I suggest you [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm"]read the whole letter here[/url].

And, whether you like it or not, voting for the infanticide-supporting, FOCA-supporting Obama does in fact support the culture of death.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.[/quote]
I don't know if you know this (it would appear that you don't), but there were more than two candidates/parties on the ballot.