I'm Not At "mass" But In Church...

[cathgirl]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 12 2004, 10:14 PM'] Mass is nothing like a sermon.

Mass is not a service.

[b]Mass is Heaven on earth. God is physically present, just as in the temple before Christ.[/b]

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Exactly!!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 12 2004, 02:18 PM'] Long story, but suffice it to say, that for the past three weeks, I've attended daily "Mass" 7:30AM style....and NO...I'm NOT going to become a "Journey Homer" Catholic again.

I do get a chuckle when Catholics I'm going with [this started out as a suicide watch for a Catholic friend] ask me "How do you like 'Mass?' " I answer, I'm going to CHURCH in the mornings...

I get blank stares. Funny really. And when I comment on the "Sermon" instead of the approved term "Homily" I get another round of blank stares.

Being able to think "Catholic" and "Protestant" at the same time is like being bi-lingual...

Peace. [/quote]
That's hilarious Bruce! I've always liked the term "sermon" too. Maybe I'll copy you.

Anyway, I've missed you on the threads, it's good to see you're around again.

God bless.

[ironmonk]

Bruce... I'm sorry... I had thought I was posting to someone else while I was writing. So, some of the post does not apply... but some still does.

God Bless,
tiredmonk

[God Conquers]

Aren't Masses and sermons different?

I've always thought that a homily was a commentary on the day's readings, whereas a sermon is a teaching from the pulpit on a topic separated from the readings.

[Laudate_Dominum]

not sure.. but I just looked up sermon and homily in the dictionary and the definitions were the same. For homily the first definition was 'a sermon'. But I still think there might be some slight difference for some reason...

[Bruce S]

OK, having done about 15 masses in the past four weeks, and [as you fellows and gals like to forget ] immensely interested in this topic of Protestant VS Catholic, on all the levels.

Some observations:

While the time "teaching" in the Mass is indeed present, it is very minimal, and sermons/homilies are not as central to the service, thus the ritual of the Mass dominates while the teaching dominates in most Protestant services.

In the entire time I've been attending Mass, NOT ONE PERSON has had a personal bible with them that I've observed during service, this one is rather odd to me now, since having your own personal bible with you at service is almost the norm for most Pentecostals nowadays....

That LACK of bible with you, to verify what you are being taught is not a good thing, wonder why the Catholic Church doesn't have pew bibles like every other denominaton does?

The statues bother me, I don't think I can every reconcile those in a church, that old part of me, isn't going to return ever...

I'm open to discussion, unlike others [that "Iron Maiden" Guy for one] .... grin, isn't.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 15 2004, 01:59 PM'] OK, having done about 15 masses in the past four weeks, and [as you fellows and gals like to forget ] immensely interested in this topic of Protestant VS Catholic, on all the levels.

Some observations:

While the time "teaching" in the Mass is indeed present, it is very minimal, and sermons/homilies are not as central to the service, thus the ritual of the Mass dominates while the teaching dominates in most Protestant services.

In the entire time I've been attending Mass, NOT ONE PERSON has had a personal bible with them that I've observed during service, this one is rather odd to me now, since having your own personal bible with you at service is almost the norm for most Pentecostals nowadays....

That LACK of bible with you, to verify what you are being taught is not a good thing, wonder why the Catholic Church doesn't have pew bibles like every other denominaton does?

The statues bother me, I don't think I can every reconcile those in a church, that old part of me, isn't going to return ever...

I'm open to discussion, unlike others [that "Iron Maiden" Guy for one] .... grin, isn't. [/quote]
God Bless.

The readings are in the missal. Ritual is not what dominates Mass... Worship of God dominates Mass. Mass is full of Scripture. Maybe if you were really open then you would see this. Maybe you should read my earlier post again.

Christians did not have bibles until well after Gutenburg created the press. By the way, Gutenburg was a Catholic, so you can thank not only the Church for the Bible that you have, but Gutenburg for creating a way to mass produce it (pun intended).

The way Christians read the bible for 1600 + years was by going to Church. Most people couldn't read nor could they afford a hand copied bible.

It's kind of sad how so many non-Catholics don't realize the way the first Christians learned of the Gospels.

Here is a resource for you: [url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/mass.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/mass.asp[/url]

[b]1 Corin. 10:32 [/b]Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,
[b]33 [/b]just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 15 2004, 11:59 AM'] OK, having done about 15 masses in the past four weeks, and [as you fellows and gals like to forget ] immensely interested in this topic of Protestant VS Catholic, on all the levels.
[/quote]
Cool. This reminds me of years ago before my conversion when I had a phase where I frequented numerous protestant churches. Toward the end of this phase I attended a Catholic Mass and my first thoughts were basically the same as the things you just expressed.

[quote]While the time "teaching" in the Mass is indeed present, it is very minimal, and sermons/homilies are not as central to the service, thus the ritual of the Mass dominates while the teaching dominates in most Protestant services.[/quote]
For Catholics the Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life. Since protestants do not have the Real Presence and the Sacrifice of Calvary made present the Liturgy of the Word is the central aspect of their services. The encounter with Christ in the Eucharist and His Sacrifice is the center of the Mass. It's not merely ritual, it's the deeper transcendent reality that is the dominant thing.

[quote]In the entire time I've been attending Mass, NOT ONE PERSON has had a personal bible with them that I've observed during service, this one is rather odd to me now, since having your own personal bible with you at service is almost the norm for most Pentecostals nowadays....[/quote]
haha! That's exactly what I said those many years ago! Great minds think alike.. and so do ours.
Actually I almost always have a Bible on me (at least a little gideon Bible in my pocket), but still, most Catholic parishes do not have Bibles in the pews (although I've been to parishes that do). I can understand your concern as a non-Catholic, I once shared this concern. But having a better understanding of the Mass now, I really don't think it's appropriate to have Bibles at Mass. The purpose of the homily is not for the priest to expound his private interpretation of the Bible. It is to prepare the hearts of the faithful to enter into the Eucharistic Mystery. Certainly expounding upon the Scriptures is a part of this, but it's still not a Bible study session.
[quote]That LACK of bible with you, to verify what you are being taught is not a good thing, wonder why the Catholic Church doesn't have pew bibles like every other denominaton does?[/quote]
Here is the definition of a homily: "A sermon, especially one intended to edify a congregation on a practical matter and not intended to be a theological discourse."

And remember that the principle of private interpretation of the Bible is not the basis of Catholicism so we do not listen to a homily as a judge of doctrine. And generally expounding on doctrine is not part of the homily. The Scripture readings are applied to our lives or something like that. If a parishoner wanted to critique the homilies doctrinal content they would need more than the Bible and their own private interpretation. They would need a reference library.
And also parishes have missaletes and things which contain the readings.
I suppose if a priest had a particular style of preaching (more like a Bible study) it might be good for the parishoners to have Bibles on them, this might explain the parishes I've been to that have Bibles in the pews. Also every adoration chapel I've ever been to has Bibles for devotional reading so you can't say that Catholic Churches don't have Bibles for private reading. This is simply not an appropriate part of the Mass. The Mass is qualitatively different from a protestant service. And remember that the Liturgy is far more ancient than a protestant service and for most of history people did not have personal Bibles so it makes sense that Catholic worship would not be structured in a way that required personal Bibles.

[quote]The statues bother me, I don't think I can every reconcile those in a church, that old part of me, isn't going to return ever...[/quote]
What's wrong with statues? Do you have a problem with statues is general, like the Lincoln memorial, or the Billy Graham museum (it has life sized statues of Mr. Graham, I've been there and its quite a shrine, I'm surprised they don't have kneelers )? I hope the decor isn't so tacky that it's keeping you out of the Church .
I'm just teasing Bruce. But seriously, let's talk about the statues thing. What is your beef with them? Are you opposed to any art work in churches or just statues? Is this because you feel they are "graven images" condemned by the Bible?

God bless you!

[Jake Huether]

[quote]While the time "teaching" in the Mass is indeed present, it is very minimal, and sermons/homilies are not as central to the service, thus the ritual of the Mass dominates while the teaching dominates in most Protestant services.[/quote]

Mass is a prayer, not a teaching. If you want Catholic teaching, you should sign up for a seminar, conferance, or read the Catechism and other Church encyclicals, read Catholic books, watch EWTN. I'm not saying you don't do any of these things already. But the Catholic Mass cannot be compared to Protestant sunday "service". Catholics come together on Sunday at Mass to worship, not to learn - although you do learn during the worship. But the primary source for Catholic training should be done outside of Mass, like, um, during RCIA...



[quote]In the entire time I've been attending Mass, NOT ONE PERSON has had a personal bible with them that I've observed during service, this one is rather odd to me now, since having your own personal bible with you at service is almost the norm for most Pentecostals nowadays....[/quote]


Actually, the Missal should cover the readings so that one can "verify" that the text is true to the vocals. LOL.


[quote]That LACK of bible with you, to verify what you are being taught is not a good thing, wonder why the Catholic Church doesn't have pew bibles like every other denominaton does?[/quote]


Sorry.. This is one of the most silly things I've ever read.. To "verify". Verify what? If the Catholic Church compiled the Bible, why would they be reading something other than what they themselves picked out.

Also, "like every other denom"? Are there "pew bibles" so that the Protestants can "verify" that the Preacher is preaching right? LOL. How do they know the "pew Bible" isn't authored and planted there by the leader of that congregation? Hahaha. It is in THEIR pew, isn't it. If they NEED to verify, they should bring their own Bibles.


"not a good thing"? Why? Catholics can get the Missal, take it home and compare it if they want. Why would a Catholic need to "read along"? Plus, if you have to flip through to verify, then you miss the point... Um... paying attention to the reading...

You'll have to elaborate on why it is not a good thing...

Catholics aren't asked to stand up and read during the Mass... so why would they need their Bibles AT Mass?


Again, the Mass isn't in any way shape or form comparable to a Sunday church service for Protestants. They completely lost it when they broke away.

The Mass isn't a teaching service. It isn't even a service. Mass is a Sunday Prayer. The greatest Prayer known to man. It is the only Prayer that brings us to Christ PHYSICALLY.

We hear the Word, and then the Word is made Flesh. That is the order of the Mass.


If you were to go to each of those daily Communicant's (those people who go to daily Mass) houses, I can guarantee you that they have and read there Bibles at home. At Mass there is no need.




[quote]The statues bother me, I don't think I can every reconcile those in a church, that old part of me, isn't going to return ever...[/quote]


Oh that's too bad. I'm sure King Solomon would disagree, since he was the first one to build a House for God under the instructions of God, which included statues, etc.

I'm assuming that you have the same feelings toward your own house. And I feel bad for your family members who probably wish that you at least had one photo of them up.



[quote]I'm open to discussion, unlike others [that "Iron Maiden" Guy for one] .... grin, isn't.[/quote]


IronMONK, is very charitable and very very knowledgable. He is open for discussion, if you are open to learn the Truth about what Catholics do and believe.

Edited March 15, 2004 by Jake Huether

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 15 2004, 11:29 AM'] God Bless.

The readings are in the missal. Ritual is not what dominates Mass... Worship of God dominates Mass. Mass is full of Scripture. Maybe if you were really open then you would see this. Maybe you should read my earlier post again.

Christians did not have bibles until well after Gutenburg created the press. By the way, Gutenburg was a Catholic, so you can thank not only the Church for the Bible that you have, but Gutenburg for creating a way to mass produce it (pun intended).

The way Christians read the bible for 1600 + years was by going to Church. Most people couldn't read nor could they afford a hand copied bible.

It's kind of sad how so many non-Catholics don't realize the way the first Christians learned of the Gospels.

Here is a resource for you: [url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/mass.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/mass.asp[/url]

[b]1 Corin. 10:32 [/b]Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,
[b]33 [/b]just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
LOL. Sorry if I re-posted some stuff. I must have been writing as you posted.

[annie]

Laudate,

Hey, I live down the road from that museum! And Bruce, as a Catholic convert, I have said all you are saying (only not as nicely as you did! )

I agree with laudate about all that has been said (won't repeat). It is interesting, though, how much God has taught me through my special needs child on the issue of statues, stained glass windows, icons etc.

It really used to bug me prior to converting, and even took some time to digest AFTER converting!

Two years ago our church burned down at the hands of an arsonist. We have been going to Mass in a gymnasium for two years. We do what little we can to create a prayerful environment, but....well, you can guess.
My little boy struggles with so much, and Mass is a long hour for him to focus. Don't get me wrong, he loves the people (used to holler 'hello' to Fr. at the entrance procession) and he loves Jesus in the Eucharist, hey, he even loves Confession (first time, he asked to go back again before we left!) Anyway, to get to the point---he actually said to us that NEEDs to see Mary there and the 'big Jesus" (crucifix over the altar which is now gone of course) because he forgets 'to think of Jesus'. Now, is that not telling? We all need constant reminders--environment is so important, and as HUMANS (and my son is just a little MORE human than some!) we wander, we seek our own needs, etc. the Mass is Heaven on Earth--and the angels and saints are with us--it is not idolatry, but brotherhood. (kinda like pictures of your extended family about you)

[Laudate_Dominum]

Cool! Thanks annie. You reminded of a story I posted on a different thread a while back. I have a friend who was raised a Buddhist in Korea and had never heard the Gospel. She made a tour of Europe just as a tourist and by visiting all the Churches and seeing all the statues and art of those great Churches she became very interested in Christianity. She says that toward the end of her trip she was in Rome and the day she visited the Sistine Chapel she stood gazing for hours at all the frescoes that adorn the chapel, presenting Salvation history in images. She said that even though she had never read any of the Bible or heard the Gospel verbally, that very day in that chapel she came to know and believe that Jesus is God!! She converted and when I knew her she was being catechised and I had the honor of being at her baptism. She was so radiant and wept tears of joy at her reception of first Holy Communion. I will never forget that day. She seemed like an angel.. God is so good.

Edited March 15, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[willguy]

Bruce,

You mention people not having Bibles. I've been to several protestant services where people always bring their bibles and/or there are bibles in the pews. You know what I've realized? There's no need for it. Cause in those churches, the only time the people use their bible is when whomever is speaking says "Open up to (such and such)." Then, the person speaking reads it and gives their interpretation of it. Heck, why did I open my Bible? I've seen many people bring their Bibles and never once open it. It is like they have it simply because they are supposed to.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='willguy' date='Mar 15 2004, 02:40 PM'] Bruce,

You mention people not having Bibles. I've been to several protestant services where people always bring their bibles and/or there are bibles in the pews. You know what I've realized? There's no need for it. Cause in those churches, the only time the people use their bible is when whomever is speaking says "Open up to (such and such)." Then, the person speaking reads it and gives their interpretation of it. Heck, why did I open my Bible? I've seen many people bring their Bibles and never once open it. It is like they have it simply because they are supposed to. [/quote]
Good point.

If you read your Bible anyway, you have the OPEN BIBLE in your heart during the Mass. No need for a Catholic to toot his own horn, "I have my Bible with me". I have it hear in my heart!

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 15 2004, 12:29 PM'] Christians did not have bibles until well after Gutenburg created the press. By the way, Gutenburg was a Catholic, so you can thank not only the Church for the Bible that you have, but Gutenburg for creating a way to mass produce it (pun intended).

It's kind of sad how so many non-Catholics don't realize the way the first Christians learned of the Gospels.
[/quote]
and, as we are given the opportunity and inexpensive as it is, in these oh-so-awesome modern times of super-hi-speed printing, we SHOULD carry our own Bible...for any and every purpose...

the Christians of today don't have to live and learn as the Christians of yesterday...relying soley of word of mouth teachings...and I'm thankful I don't have to.

and, as for what was said about "God being physically present" in mass....

isn't God physically present EVERYWHERE?