Cardinal Schonborn

[Justin86]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1704660' date='Nov 20 2008, 12:16 AM']There is no way these young people are gaining the neccessary awe for the body and blood of our Lord![/quote]
But, who needs Christ at Mass when we can have each other? I mean, what does Christ have to do with Christianity?

[Theologian in Training]

I agree with everything that was said, however, as is sometimes the case, he may not have known what he was getting into. The Mass starts and he is pretty much stuck there, unless he wants to just stop Mass altogether (though, as far as I know, that is impossible). Granted, he could have said something, or made his discontent a little more evident, but Cardinal Schonborn does not strike me as the most outgoing person in the world, and perhaps a bit shy. It does not excuse his implicit consent, but still. Also, think about this, if it was you who had to say that Mass, where would you start, since there were more than a thousand (exaggeration, I know) abuses going on there? Please, no balloons, wait, no pita bread, wait, no strobes, wait, no mini-concert. etc.

Just my .02 as a priest

[thessalonian]

By the way, I don't think the balloons thing was all that bad. Just in with everything else it looked bad. As a symbol of our prayers going up to heaven, which is what incense is about I think it could be done respectfully. Not sure that it was in this case.

[Ziggamafu]

Well...sure, I'll give the benefit of the doubt; but that fluffy pita bread looked WHITE. As in, not wheat. As in, totally invalid; mere bread.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1704703' date='Nov 19 2008, 08:22 AM']Well...sure, I'll give the benefit of the doubt; but that fluffy pita bread looked WHITE. As in, not wheat. As in, totally invalid; mere bread.[/quote]

The lighting was dark so the bread could appear whiter then it actually was... I almost hope it wasn't actual wheaten bread. I think it may even have been better if it wasn't consecrated considering the context of the mass taking place.

[puellapaschalis]

Fr. Z. has had a [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/11/statement-for-wdtprs-from-the-spokesperson-for-he-card-schonborn/"]response[/url].

[Theosis3]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but theoretically can't a priest celebrate mass just like this by the changes brought about from vatican II? Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about outright abuse, but my point is, can't a priest 'design' how mass is to be celebrated(song, lighting, type of bread) within the guidelines of vatican ii and have a similar approach to the mass like this one?

This obviously never occurred in the days before vatican ii, maybe because canon law didnt allow it. But now with the changes of vatican ii, we find this type of mass happening more often(even if the numbers are small). What stops them from playing a heavy metal worship song while handing out communion?

Let's pray for this type of disrespectful behavior to stop...

[Maggyie]

Unfortunately the Cardinal was the one who first started having these kinds of Masses a few years ago. They are supposed to appeal to the youth. He has been the main celebrant many times. They are always the same (strobes, balloons, basically a horror show). No one can understand why he is doing this, especially since he was the editor of the Catechism. Very depressing, especially since the Cardinal usually comes off as an ally of the Pope. Happily the gates of Hell will not prevail.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Theosis3' post='1704904' date='Nov 19 2008, 03:29 PM']Correct me if I'm wrong, but theoretically can't a priest celebrate mass just like this by the changes brought about from vatican II? Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about outright abuse, but my point is, can't a priest 'design' how mass is to be celebrated(song, lighting, type of bread) within the guidelines of vatican ii and have a similar approach to the mass like this one?

This obviously never occurred in the days before vatican ii, maybe because canon law didnt allow it. But now with the changes of vatican ii, we find this type of mass happening more often(even if the numbers are small). What stops them from playing a heavy metal worship song while handing out communion?

Let's pray for this type of disrespectful behavior to stop...[/quote]

No theoretically a priest can't celebrate mass just like that. First of all, the rubrics still show that nothing may be added or removed from the mass, therefore the entire balloon incident could no way ever be part of mass. The music for the mass still has regulations, such as the instruments used must be sacred instruments and must be within the spirit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Electric guitars/heavy metal music is well... not sacred. Although there is SOME room for interpretation as to what a sacred instrument is (which is why we unfortunately see guitars today), no one could reasonably argue electric guitars and the like to be sacred.

The type of bread used at this mass was still a flat bread and could possibly even have been unleavened. If you look at Fr. Z's blog, it is even claimed to be unleavened which means the bread is actually within the rubrics of any Latin mass (even the extraordinary form as celebrated before Vatican II if I'm not mistaken) and there is nothing disrespectful about it, there just needs to be much more caution with crumbs (look at Eastern Rite they use leavened bread which always has crumbs). Just make sure you have altar servers with patens under the chin.

[mortify]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1704867' date='Nov 19 2008, 05:29 PM']Fr. Z. has had a [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/11/statement-for-wdtprs-from-the-spokesperson-for-he-card-schonborn/"]response[/url].[/quote]

Has anyone read it? Seems like the representative is boldly saying, "We did no wrong!!!"

[Ziggamafu]

Hmm. But remember that the GIRM is called "General Instruction" for a reason; many of the lines of the GIRM and canon law refer to "norms" and some even state specifically that the bishop has the say in adjusting or changing the various details of the celebration. All that said, doesn't the bishop, [i]unlike the priest[/i], have the power to do whatever he wants in liturgical design?

Note: I'm obviously referring to the things that [i]can [/i]be changed, not the essential elements for a given sacrament's validity.

Point: Schonborn could approve clown masses and wafers in the shape of maple leaves and the only way to stop him would be an appeal to the pope (as in, he has the power to do mostly whatever he wants unless the pope stops him). Isn't that right?

[Slappo]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1705540' date='Nov 20 2008, 06:18 AM']Hmm. But remember that the GIRM is called "General Instruction" for a reason; many of the lines of the GIRM and canon law refer to "norms" and some even state specifically that the bishop has the say in adjusting or changing the various details of the celebration. All that said, doesn't the bishop, [i]unlike the priest[/i], have the power to do whatever he wants in liturgical design?

Note: I'm obviously referring to the things that [i]can [/i]be changed, not the essential elements for a given sacrament's validity.

Point: Schonborn could approve clown masses and wafers in the shape of maple leaves and the only way to stop him would be an appeal to the pope (as in, he has the power to do mostly whatever he wants unless the pope stops him). Isn't that right?[/quote]

Many refer to norms, but many are set in stone and the bishop cannot change them. Such as he cannot all the sudden deem that profane music is allowed in mass. He cannot change the parts of the mass, such as adding a balloon ceremony in...

Even those things that he could change such as lighting etc would be an abuse of his power to the extent that they were changed in this mass and therefore still not really permissible.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Theosis3' post='1704904' date='Nov 19 2008, 06:29 PM']Correct me if I'm wrong, but theoretically can't a priest celebrate mass just like this by the changes brought about from vatican II? Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about outright abuse, but my point is, can't a priest 'design' how mass is to be celebrated(song, lighting, type of bread) within the guidelines of vatican ii and have a similar approach to the mass like this one?

This obviously never occurred in the days before vatican ii, maybe because canon law didnt allow it. But now with the changes of vatican ii, we find this type of mass happening more often(even if the numbers are small). What stops them from playing a heavy metal worship song while handing out communion?

Let's pray for this type of disrespectful behavior to stop...[/quote]

Before I was ordained, and I asked my bishop for advice on the Mass, he said, quite simply: "Do the red and read the black" (for those who have never seen the Sacramentary, that is, the book we say the Mass from, there are instructions above most everything that is in there on what to do, when to extend arms, when to fold them, etc.) So, to answer your question, the priest is limited in the "freedoms" in which he can take.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Theologian in Training

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1705582' date='Nov 20 2008, 11:11 AM']...he cannot all the sudden deem that profane music is allowed in mass. He cannot change the parts of the mass, such as adding a balloon ceremony in...

Even those things that he could change such as lighting etc would be an abuse of his power to the extent that they were changed in this mass and therefore still not really permissible.[/quote]

I agree with the second half of your post; you'll notice that I expressed explicit dismay in my initial post in this thread. Nevertheless, I believe you may not be entirely accurate in your assessment of the power of the bishop. Whether not the power may be abused is not an issue, nor is the abuse of power in this instance disputed. However, I am fairly certain that the bishop has the ability to change anything he likes, so long as he retains the basic rights of the liturgies of the Word & Eucharist and so long as he retains the proper form and matter for the sacrament. Whether or not his changes represent abuses ([i]formally[/i]) is a matter that only the pope can decide.

[Ash Wednesday]

Eh....no disrespect intended, but I guess this might help explain why the Cardinal wasn't the Pope's first choice to head the CDF like people thought he would.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Ash Wednesday