Not Eating Meat

[LilyofSaintMaria]

I was hoping some people can help me understand why do we give up meat of all things on Fridays of Lent (and the rest of the year, too, for some Catholics)? How come some Religious orders like the Carmelites and Poor Clares give up meat entirely? Thoughts please!
And I was also wondering the reason behind non-religious vegetarians - how come they give up meat?

Thanks for your input!

Bernadette

[alicemary]

I am almost a vegetarian(occasionally have to have a big mac). I simply do not enjoy the taste of meat, it always tastes too fatty to me. Vegetables, fruits, grains taste fresh. I feel healthier when I eat more natural foods. I am a diabetic, and my blood sugars stay good when I eat well. It is a matter of personal choice for me, I choose to limit my meat products, but do eat coagulated milk, milk and eggs. My vegan friends eat none of those either.
As to religious, many just do not eat meat, or eat it on occasions. I know that some will eat meat on the big holidays, turkey on thanksgiving etc. In the 'old days' meat was a more luxury item, fish was cheap. In our world today, fish can be very high also. I think that religious were giving up the meat as a sacrifice. Today, there are many people who do not eat meat and it is not for a religious reason. My vegan friend does so because it not only makes her feel better to eat naturally, but because she does not approve of how animals are treated when raised for food.
If you have never tried it, dont worry, you get used to it! Most people cant imagine not eating meat, but there is lots to eat these days beside meat.
Email me off site if you have any questions.
Alicemary

[Luigi]

As I understand it, back in the old days, meat was a luxury and only the wealthy could afford it; Catholics abstained from meat on Fridays as a reminder that this was the day that Jesus was crucified, and it was also a sacrifice (targeted more at the rich) that reminded people of the poor among us; in any case, it is a minor mortification of the flesh, which is always useful for teaching us self-control. Interestingly, Catholics in Spain were exempted from the meatless-Fridays rule as a "reward" for Spain having discovered & Christianized the New World.

I know that, traditionally, Trappists did not eat meat, and some monasteries still adhere to that tradition, although I think some of them have meat for special occasions. They, along with the Carmelites and other orders that permanently abstain from meat, view it as a penitential practice and as a living-out of their vow of poverty, I believe.

My recollections are vague, though - I heard or read all of this somewhere along the line, but I can't recall exactly where or when; others may have specific references that explain it all more clearly.

[DominicanPhilosophy]

Yes - as our fellow PMers have said above, meat was traditionally abstained from because it was considered a luxury. Today, prices of meat are more affordable, and as Alicemary said, fish can often times be more expensive. So, we must return to the source and remember [i]why[/i] we give things up. Other than for self-discipline, we attempt to bring ourselves closer to God when we give things up. We're showing ourselves that living simply and with God is possible, and often times more preferable once we've tried it out compared to our past lifestyle. But when we are fasting, our stomachs tend to growl and pain us -- this symbolizes, in a way we can understand and really [b]feel[/b], our hunger [i]for God[/i]! Again, because meat is more affordable [most of the time] than fish, when we abstain/fast, we can remember those whose stomachs are always empty, and those whose souls are constantly searching for God; we can unite ourselves with the poor. But we also need to be careful that, in giving up meat and eating fish, we don't go out and buy an expensive, extravagant crab cake dish or something.

Pax vobiscum! +

Edited November 16, 2008 by DominicanPhilosophy

[Sister Rose Therese]

From what I remember, those religious orders that abstain from meat, can make exceptions for particular reasons. Because abstaining from meat is done as a penance, there may be circumstances when the superior would dispense an individual from that for a time, like for health reasons.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Sister Rose Therese

[Thomist-in-Training]

I found out recently that while the Poor Clares Colettine never eat meat (15th century reform, Mother Mary Francis' community in Chicago, Roswell etc.) some Poor Clares do, such as the Urbanist Poor Clares in Italy, and the Poor Clares of the Immaculate descended from them. The latter have meat only on special occasions; probably the same for the Urbanists.

Here is a neat passage from St John Chrysostom, from Homily III of his "Homilies on the Statues" (cited [url="http://www.fisheaters.com/fasting.html)"]http://www.fisheaters.com/fasting.html)[/url]

[quote]The honour of fasting consists not in abstinence from food, but in withdrawing from sinful practices; since he who limits his fasting only to an abstinence from meats, is one who especially disparages it.

Dost thou fast? Give me proof of it by thy works! Is it said by what kind of works? If thou seest a poor man, take pity on him! If thou seest an enemy, be reconciled to him! If thou seest a friend gaining honour, envy him not! If thou seest a handsome woman, pass her by!

For let not the mouth only fast, but also the eye, and ear, and the feet, and the hands, and all the members of our bodies. Let the hands fast, by being pure from rapine and avarice. Let the feet fast, but ceasing from running to the unlawful spectacles. Let the eyes fast, being taught never to fix themselves rudely upon handsome countenances, or to busy themselves with strange beauties.

For looking is the food of the eyes, but if this be such as is unlawful or forbidden, it mars the fast; and upsets the whole safety of the soul; but if it be lawful and safe, it adorns fasting. For it would be among things the most absurd to abstain from lawful food because of the fast, but with the eyes to touch even what is forbidden. Dost thou not eat flesh? Feed not upon lasciviousness by means of the eyes. Let the ear fast also. The fasting of the ear consists in refusing to receive evil speakings and calumnies. "Thou shalt not receive a false report," it says.[/quote]

[Stacey]

The Cistercians at Glencairm in Ireland have a blog, you could write and ask Sr Eleanor their take on it as they are totally vegetarian http:www.cistercianvocation.wordpress.co
m/ The Rule of St Benedict says not to eat meat except for those who are ill or elderly and some communities keep this literally whilst others have modified it and keep its spirit instead which is penitential as others have said. At Colwich we only eat meat three days a week, fish on Friday and vegetarian on the other three days. pax sr marie therese

[Digitaldame]

You are all quite right: the obligation to abstain from meat is an old monastic custom and reflects both the expense of meat in the Ancient World and the belief that meat tended to excite the passions (read Cassian on this subject!). Despite St Benedict's prohibition of fleshmeat for all but the sick or very weak, English Benedictines have allowed meat on three or four days a week during Ordinary time. However, alongside this goes the discipline of the Lenten fast. I can't summarise it all here, but at one time (and not so long ago) everyone abstained not only from meat but from butter, coagulated milk and eggs on fast days, what used to be called "Lactantia". If you look up "Lenten fast" in the old Catholic Encyclopedia, there's a good outline of the historical development. Until the mid twentieth centuryl, Catholic dietary laws during Lent reflected Jewish custom: it was forbidden to eat both meat and dairy products at the same meal . . . We tend to be fairly flexible about meat eating here at Hendred, allowing it to be eaten on three days of the week (meat includes chicken and pheasant) although we sometimes have a vegetarian dish instead. For big feasts, we sometimes have fish because that is now a luxury item. What we aim at is what Benedict recommended: a healthy, balanced diet, which provides for individual infirmities, but which is not costly or luxurious. The penitential aspect of not eating meat tends to pass us by because none of us is particularly keen on meat, but we are serious about fasting, and when it's cold and wet, fasting can be quite hard. We fast every day during Lent and on all Fridays from 13 September until Easter: that means one meal a day with a small collation at breakfast and supper. Again, there is a very sound spiritual basis to the discipline, but the important thing to grasp is the spiritual purpose rather than the minutiae of the fast itself. Oh, and good news, Advent is no longer offically a fasting period.

[LilyofSaintMaria]

Thanks so much!
I was thinking about the WHY of it before I posted my question. I was thinking along the lines of Jesus as the Lamb of God, the sacrificial lamb. We abstain from meat because Jesus is our real food - the Word made Flesh. He sacrificed Himself for us, we can sacrifice the substantial food of flesh meat because Jesus sustains us.
Does this makes sense at all?

[Luigi]

[quote name='DominicanPhilosophy' post='1702281' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:18 PM']Yes - as our fellow PMers have said above, meat was traditionally abstained from because it was considered a luxury. Today, prices of meat are more affordable, and as Alicemary said, fish can often times be more expensive. So, we must return to the source and remember [i]why[/i] we give things up. Other than for self-discipline, we attempt to bring ourselves closer to God when we give things up. We're showing ourselves that living simply and with God is possible, and often times more preferable once we've tried it out compared to our past lifestyle. But when we are fasting, our stomachs tend to growl and pain us -- this symbolizes, in a way we can understand and really [b]feel[/b], our hunger [i]for God[/i]! Again, because meat is more affordable [most of the time] than fish, when we abstain/fast, we can remember those whose stomachs are always empty, and those whose souls are constantly searching for God; we can unite ourselves with the poor. But we also need to be careful that, in giving up meat and eating fish, we don't go out and buy an expensive, extravagant crab cake dish or something.

Pax vobiscum! +[/quote]

Exactly - these days, we'd be more penetential to eat hot dogs or bologna (meat) than to eat lobster, shrimp, or crab cakes (nonn-meat)! The custom developed under circumstances much different than they are today, and we'd do better to honor the custom by updating it than by adhering to it literally.

[TotusTuusMaria]

Mother Catherine Thomas, a Carmelite, writes in [i]My Beloved[/i], "The same is true of monastery diet. Our Rule states, as I have mentioned previously, that we may never eat meat, ex-cept in case of illness or infirmity. Here again we are aware of the fact that for many of the world's millions meat is a rare luxury; and by many others (vegtarians, for example) meat is shunned completely."

While it is very easy and a lot of the time affordable these days to have meat in one's meal, it is probably very much taken advantage of. Since we started having fast food, people have gained a lot more weight than before they did. You can have a cheeseburger anywhere. I have a relative that has probably committed many sins of gluttony because every time he passes a McDonalds he has to pull in and get a cheeseburger. A Carmelite makes up for the sins of the world, and does without things most of those in the world do have. Meat is everywhere. There are very few meals (except during Lent and on Fridays) that are meatless in my house. All of my favorite meals include meat. To be without meat is a bit of a pain, especially for those who can't afford lobster and shrimp every Friday (like Carmelites), and have macaroni, coagulated milk pizza, or a fish sandwich every Friday (like my family). They are not the most yummy-est things in the world, especially when eaten often. Meat is still very much a luxury because it is so good and makes so many meals the better. And the fact that it is common and usually when one commits an act of gluttony (at least for me) meat is included in the dish I overdo on... I can see why it is still good for those religious who are atoning for our sins through their penance, to do without meat.