Priest Says

[mortify]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1705926' date='Nov 20 2008, 05:05 PM']2) When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.[/quote]

Do you believe there was a proportionate reason to vote for a pro abortion candidate as a opposed to a pro life one?

[hérisson]

[quote name='mortify' post='1707412' date='Nov 22 2008, 02:05 AM']Do you believe there was a proportionate reason to vote for a pro abortion candidate as a opposed to a pro life one?[/quote]

I don't.

But if somebody else does, and if that person has considered all the information that he has, then he may conclude that there are proportianate reasons to vote for one candidate rather then the other. He may still make a wrong judgment, but according to the first principle, this is not a sufficient reason for saying that he committed a mortal sin and should thus abstain from receiving Holy Communion. That conclusion can only be made if the person voted for one candidate because of his pro-abortion policy, which is not zwergel88's case.
Note that none of the candidates were 100% pro-life, so we have to be careful with that kind of expressions (at least in this case).

[mortify]

What would be considered a proportionate reason to vote for Obama?

[hérisson]

[quote name='mortify' post='1707817' date='Nov 22 2008, 07:11 PM']What would be considered a proportionate reason to vote for Obama?[/quote]

Good question... but it's not up to me to answer, because I do not claim there was any.
Proabaly zwergel88 thinks so, because she voted for him (thinking that his policy would lead to reduce the number of abortions), which I would never have done if I were an American.

Once again : my point is not to defend Obama voters, but just to remind that we should not to easlily play with "mortal sin" kind of accusations or phrases like "you have to abstain from Communion". This can only be said in the precise cases which the above quoted documents describe.

Edited November 22, 2008 by hérisson

[hérisson]

[quote name='mortify' post='1707817' date='Nov 22 2008, 07:11 PM']What would be considered a proportionate reason to vote for Obama?[/quote]

Sorry, I may have misunderstood your question...

Well in theory, you could imagine this kind of situation.
Somebody may say : ok, one candidate says he's against abortion, but he won't do much to reduce the number of abortions. On the other hand, he may lead a kind of policy in other areas that will make many more innocent people die... If the other candidate offers some guarantees that in that area, he will pursue more of a pro-life policy, then, I guess, one might consider this as a proportionate reason.
Again, this is purely hypothetical... but I wouldn't be surprised if some voters reasoned that way. In fact, it seems to me like zwergel88's arguments went into that direction.

[mortify]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1707921' date='Nov 22 2008, 03:34 PM']Well in theory, you could imagine this kind of situation.
Somebody may say : ok, one candidate says he's against abortion, but he won't do much to reduce the number of abortions. On the other hand, he may lead a kind of policy in other areas that will make many more innocent people die... If the other candidate offers some guarantees that in that area, he will pursue more of a pro-life policy, then, I guess, one might consider this as a proportionate reason.
Again, this is purely hypothetical... but I wouldn't be surprised if some voters reasoned that way. In fact, it seems to me like zwergel88's arguments went into that direction.[/quote]

Why doesn't this really qualify as a proportionate cause?

[hérisson]

[quote name='mortify' post='1708309' date='Nov 23 2008, 06:38 AM']Why doesn't this really qualify as a proportionate cause?[/quote]

I am not saying that it qualifies, neither that it does not; I leave that up to zwergel88, because she analyzed the political situation differently than I did.
My point is just to say that her attitude did not meet the above mentioned conditions concerning mortal sin and abstaining from holy Communion. Therefore Dave's conclusions and the resulting accusations are wrong.
That's all.
If you want to discuss this further with me, please sent me a private message, since I don't intend to come back to this topic.
God bless !

[mortify]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1709913' date='Nov 24 2008, 05:18 PM']I am not saying that it qualifies, neither that it does not; I leave that up to zwergel88, because she analyzed the political situation differently than I did.
My point is just to say that her attitude did not meet the above mentioned conditions concerning mortal sin and abstaining from holy Communion. Therefore Dave's conclusions and the resulting accusations are wrong.
That's all.
If you want to discuss this further with me, please sent me a private message, since I don't intend to come back to this topic.
God bless ![/quote]

I was not talking about zwergel, but your personal opinion.

Earlier you said there is no proportionate reason that would justify voting for Obama, so I'm curious why the hypothetical reason you offered doesn't justify it. I was not speculating about whether a particular person committed mortal sin or not, just wanted your opinion.


God bless