Priest Says

[TIWW]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1701171' date='Nov 14 2008, 10:44 AM']It is a priest's responsibility to protect the Eucharist from profanation. Moreover, he must also protect those who hold a position that is contrary to the moral doctrine of the Church from compounding their sin by committing an act of sacrilege.[/quote]

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[size=3] What if a vote for Obama is a vote against the killing of Innocents in Iraq? What if a vote for Obama is a vote against Torture, a vote against the slaughter in Darfur, which this administration has so totally ignored? Is it not a sacrilege to defend the unborn, but put others to death by other means?
All are born into the love of Christ, the Commandment " thou shall not kill" does not specify only the unborn.
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Edited November 16, 2008 by TIWW

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='mortify' post='1702694' date='Nov 16 2008, 09:48 PM']So if a person with a malformed conscience desires to perform something they know the Divine Law teaches is intrinsically evil, that person has a [b]duty[/b] to obey their conscience? I hope you understand such a person would be committing a mortal sin.[/quote]

1. I recommend you check up the conditions for mortal sin in the CCC : [i]intrinsically evil [/i]does not necessarily mean [i]grave matter[/i]. The latter is one of the conditions for mortal sin.

2. If a person with a malformed conscience desires to perform something he knows the Divine Law teaches is seriously evil, and if he follows his desire, then he does not follow his conscience, because conscience tells him " It's bad ! ". However, if I understand what zwergel88 says above, his case is completely different. Conscience did not tell him "voting for Obama is bad".

Once again, when discussing theological matters (and especially questions related to moral theology), one has to make all the distinctions Catholic teaching makes; otherwise, he is likely to come up with wrong conclusions.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='mortify' post='1702694' date='Nov 16 2008, 09:48 PM']Mortal sin is not dependent on intention but whether the act is grave and whether we perform it knowingly and willingly.

The Bible and Church both teach that the ends do[u] not[/u] justify the means. We may NEVER perform an intrinsically evil act even if greater good may come of it.[/quote]


But the point is : neither the Bible nor the Church teach that voting for Obama is intrinsically evil. Once again : I personally believe it was a mistake to vote for him, but I have no right to accuse people who analyze the situation according to criteria (and maybe information) which are different from mine.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='mortify' post='1702694' date='Nov 16 2008, 09:48 PM']Now many people have been [i]deceived[/i] by the idea that Obama's policies will improve the economy and therefore decrease abortion even though his policies will also undo many pro-life regulations. This does not justify a vote for Obama because this decrease in abortions amounts to nothing more than a hypothesis (and a poor one because we know the economy wont improve for many years to come), while it's a fact that he will override pro-life regulations and bring new pro-choice regulations.[/quote]

I agree with that part of your analysis. But we may not accuse people of committing a mortal sin if, after serious consideration, they come to different conclusions.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='mortify' post='1702694' date='Nov 16 2008, 09:48 PM']Any Catholic who voted for Obama knowing that abortion is an intrinsic evil cooperates with Obama's policies.[/quote]

Concerning cooperation, Catholic teaching makes the difference between formal and material cooperation. I think it's not in the CCC, but there are some websites which explain it well.

Would you accuse people who voted for Bush of cooperating in an unjust war ?
I wouldn't.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Fr. Bruno

[Dave]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1702548' date='Nov 16 2008, 11:20 AM']You are mistaken. Church teaching is of course against abortion, but does not say " Voting for Obama is wrong ". If a person honestly thinks that Obama's policy is going to reduce the number of abortions (which is zwergel88's case), then he might very well vote for him. Once again, following your conscience is a duty, but not a sin, and certainly not a mortal sin.[/quote]

You are mistaken, not me. The Church says voting for a pro-abortion politician is wrong if there aren't proportional reasons for doing so. Obama is pro-abortion, and there was no, I repeat, NO proportional reason for ANYBODY to vote for him.

You forget that we're not just called to follow our conscience; we're to follow a CORRECT conscience. A correct conscience is one that is properly formed, that is, formed by the teachings of God and His Church. If our conscience goes against Church teaching, then we don't have a properly-formed conscience. Conscience isn't the same as personal opinion.

[Dave]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1702550' date='Nov 16 2008, 11:42 AM']The Church does not deny communion to anybody just because of whom that person votes for.
Once again, your interpretation of Church teaching is wrong.[/quote]

Knowingly voting for a candidate who promotes evil is a mortal sin. That is Church teaching. I'm sorry to see that you're either unable or unwilling to recognize it as such. The Church doesn't permit anyone in the state of mortal sin to receive Holy Communion. Face it -- I (as well as Apotheoun and many others) am right and you are wrong.

[Dave]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1702553' date='Nov 16 2008, 11:55 AM']You may try to convince somebody that Obama is not the right choice. That would be perfect. However, the way you try to do it is likely to produce the opposite effect.
Telling someone he is in mortal sin if the person wasn't even aware of the fact that what he did was wrong, that kind of attitude simply reveals that you ignore part of the Church's teaching on mortal sin. In other words : you are not sufficiently trained to teach people the way you pretend to do, and you should thus abstain from that kind of counterproductive attitude.[/quote]

How did I say I do it? I didn't say anything about how I do it. You're making a lot of rash assumptions about me.

I've never told anyone they're in the state of mortal sin, but I HAVE said that a given action is a mortal sin. Big difference. I ignore NONE of Church teaching. You, on the other hand, don't seem to want to give correction when it's warranted simply because a person may be unaware. Being unaware doesn't mean someone doesn't need correction! If they're unaware something is a mortal sin, then it's still a mortal sin. Maybe said person won't actually be guilty of a mortal sin, but the action is still in and of itself mortally sinful, and they still need to be told. And once they've been told, they really have no more excuse. Therefore, it's YOU who aren't sufficiently trained to teach people the way you pretend to do, and it's YOU who should thus abstain from that kind of counterproductive attitude.

[Dave]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1702559' date='Nov 16 2008, 12:04 PM']Luke 6:39-42[/quote]


The Bible passage you speak of is as follows:

[quote]9He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.[/quote]

Who are you to claim I'm the blind leading the blind? I may not be a priest or theologian, but I know right from wrong very well.

And how dare you assume I pay no attention to my faults and instead point out others' faults! That is VERY judgmental of you. I'm a sinner, I examine my conscience, and I go to confession. We're all sinners. But if we know what's right and what's wrong, then we have a DUTY to let someone know that doing or not doing something or other will endanger their soul. That passage does NOT say that we can never correct anybody. Aren't you a priest? Don't you have to correct those who are erring? It's ESPECIALLY your duty as a priest.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Dave

[Dave]

[quote name='TIWW' post='1702785' date='Nov 16 2008, 05:33 PM'][size=5]
[size=3] What if a vote for Obama is a vote against the killing of Innocents in Iraq? What if a vote for Obama is a vote against Torture, a vote against the slaughter in Darfur, which this administration has so totally ignored? Is it not a sacrilege to defend the unborn, but put others to death by other means?
All are born into the love of Christ, the Commandment " thou shall not kill" does not specify only the unborn.
[/size][/size][/quote]

Apples and oranges. In wartime, innocent people may get killed -- soldiers and civilians alike. However, soldiers know and accept that that could happen. Civilians may get killed with there being no intention of that happening. It's not a good thing, but it's not sinful when that happens -- it's what Catholic theology calls the principle of double effect. In a nutshell, the bad things that happen aren't directly willed in performing the act itself but rather is an unfortunate side effect.

Besides, there's such a thing as a just war. There is NEVER such a thing as a just abortion. The number of casualties in this war cannot even come close to the millions upon millions of babies killed each day via abortion!

The slaughter in Darfur is happening in Africa, not the U.S., so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

And torture, while bad, is not as big a sin as killing the unborn, gay marriage, etc.

Bottom line? There's NO reason to have voted for Obama -- NOTHING can justify it. Period.

[Dave]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1702799' date='Nov 16 2008, 05:51 PM']1. I recommend you check up the conditions for mortal sin in the CCC : [i]intrinsically evil [/i]does not necessarily mean [i]grave matter[/i]. The latter is one of the conditions for mortal sin.

2. If a person with a malformed conscience desires to perform something he knows the Divine Law teaches is seriously evil, and if he follows his desire, then he does not follow his conscience, because conscience tells him " It's bad ! ". However, if I understand what zwergel88 says above, his case is completely different. Conscience did not tell him "voting for Obama is bad".

Once again, when discussing theological matters (and especially questions related to moral theology), one has to make all the distinctions Catholic teaching makes; otherwise, he is likely to come up with wrong conclusions.[/quote]

1. Knowingly voting for a pro-abortion politician without proportionate reason and when there's a candidate who's pro-life or at least much less pro-abortion involves grave matter.

2. So what if a person's conscience is malformed and tells them something is good when it's actually bad?

Also, no one has failed to make any necessary distinctions.

[Dave]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1702806' date='Nov 16 2008, 06:01 PM']But the point is : neither the Bible nor the Church teach that voting for Obama is intrinsically evil. Once again : I personally believe it was a mistake to vote for him, but I have no right to accuse people who analyze the situation according to criteria (and maybe information) which are different from mine.[/quote]


The Church teaches that knowingly voting for a pro-abortion politician without proportionate reason and when there's a more pro-life alternative is intrinsically evil. And the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill." Obviously that means we're not only supposed to kill others but also not to ENABLE people to kill others.

[Dave]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1702809' date='Nov 16 2008, 06:06 PM']I agree with that part of your analysis. But we may not accuse people of committing a mortal sin if, after serious consideration, they come to different conclusions.[/quote]

Some Catholics have considered the question of contraception, come to different conclusions than the Church, and thus use contraception in their marriages. Others have considered the question of homosexual activity, come to different conclusions than the Church, and either practice or encourage homosexual activity. Still others have considered the question of masturbation; premarital sex; etc.; come to different conclusions than the Church, and practice such behaviors. Does that mean such acts aren't wrong? No! The individuals in question have committed mortal sin, objectively speaking. The same holds true with knowingly voting for a pro-abortion politician in the absence of proportional reasons.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1702553' date='Nov 16 2008, 10:55 AM']You may try to convince somebody that Obama is not the right choice. That would be perfect. However, the way you try to do it is likely to produce the opposite effect.
Telling someone he is in mortal sin if the person wasn't even aware of the fact that what he did was wrong, that kind of attitude simply reveals that you ignore part of the Church's teaching on mortal sin. In other words : you are not sufficiently trained to teach people the way you pretend to do, and you should thus abstain from that kind of counterproductive attitude.[/quote]
Am I the only one who finds an irony between modern day debates about whether the Church did enough during WWII and the Church going too far with pro-life issues?

The Church is accused of doing too little to save the Jews and other victims of the Nazi holocaust. The Church, according to critics, should have called out Hitler and his murderous regime. Now some in the Church are accused of going too far for calling out supporters of practices which slaughter people whose only crime was being conceived. "How dare the Church make condemning statements about a politician who calls the unborn 'punishment'!" is the battle cry. Ok, they probably leave the "punishment" part out.

For those who stand on the argument that Obama's social programs will reduce abortions, why is that important? Is there some moral dilemma? If so, what kind? If his programs reduced abortion to zero, should the need for pro-life laws cease? Does the rightness or wrongness of law hinge on the number of infractions?

The padre was right to call Obama supporters to repent for their active cooperation in electing the most pro-death candidate. The only flaw I see is the timing. Obama is not in office yet. All the reactions are based on things he said during the campaign. It's hard to judge his behaviors until he has taken office and actually enacted his plans. I have no doubt he'll carry out most, if not all, of his evil plans, but I would rather wait to drop the hammer.

I think all energy between now and inauguration should focus on trying to inform him of the pro-life stance and bring him to the center. Any movement to the center would be better than what we have now.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1702809' date='Nov 16 2008, 05:06 PM']I agree with that part of your analysis. But we may not accuse people of committing a mortal sin if, after serious consideration, they come to different conclusions.[/quote]
So was it necessary for Jesus to ask for the forgiveness of those who persecuted him? According to your logic, no as long they gave it serious consideration. The unnecessarily need for forgiveness could also be made for other radicals who came to different conclusions after serious consideration: Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, ...

People are ill served when they are told to let their conscience guide them, including political matters. The conscience is to be the guided, not the guider.