Priest Says

[Dave]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1701466' date='Nov 14 2008, 06:19 PM']However, the Church teaches us that a person must follow his/her conscience ; not following your conscience would be a sin. Of course, conscience must also be informed, but that's a lifelong process. If somebody sincerely does his best to discern who might be the better president, then we do not have a right to tell that person he acted sinfully in voting for that candidate. The person may have made a wrong judgment, but that does not mean that the act was objectively sinful.
In a personal conversation, like in confession, one might find out that the person did not do all he could to discern what was the best thing to do (yet even then it takes a lot of time, listening, prudence...) ; yet in a discussion forum like this, we should not pretend to do so, and even less to tell somebody he should stop receiving communion.

In other words : we should be very careful in making judgments about other people's consciences, especially on a public forum where everybody can read what you say...[/quote]

A person must follow his/her conscience, yes, but his/her conscience has to be CORRECT, that is, informed by Church teachings -- ALL of them. If a person is ignorant through no fault of their own of what they should or shouldn't do, then that's one thing. But zwergel88 has been called out on this issue many times by many different people on Phatmass. People have told her that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is gravely wrong, refuted the arguments she's made for voting for Obama, etc., but she refuses to consider what we tell her. Putting one's fingers in one's ears and going "lalalalalalalala" doesn't say much for the state of one's conscience, now does it? Thus, there's nothing wrong with telling someone who has objectively committed a mortal sin that they need to stop receiving Holy Communion until they repent, no matter what the venue. Sin is sin!

Edited November 14, 2008 by Dave

[princessgianna]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1701122' date='Nov 14 2008, 09:30 AM'][url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2008/11/priest_says_no.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed1"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_...ostPop_Emailed1[/url][/quote]
Duh!

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Dave' post='1701511' date='Nov 14 2008, 05:05 PM']A person must follow his/her conscience, yes, but his/her conscience has to be CORRECT, that is, informed by Church teachings -- ALL of them. If a person is ignorant through no fault of their own of what they should or shouldn't do, then that's one thing. But zwergel88 has been called out on this issue many times by many different people on Phatmass. People have told her that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is gravely wrong, refuted the arguments she's made for voting for Obama, etc., but she refuses to consider what we tell her. Putting one's fingers in one's ears and going "lalalalalalalala" doesn't say much for the state of one's conscience, now does it? Thus, there's nothing wrong with telling someone who has objectively committed a mortal sin that they need to stop receiving Holy Communion until they repent, no matter what the venue. Sin is sin![/quote]
The point you're missing is that you saying it's wrong to someone doesn't make it so. It isn't your mission in life to form consciences. Leave it to God, or, for the love of Jesus, learn how to use critical thinking skills when you try to make an argument.

[hérisson]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1701828' date='Nov 15 2008, 08:14 AM']The point you're missing is that you saying it's wrong to someone doesn't make it so. It isn't your mission in life to form consciences. Leave it to God, or, for the love of Jesus, learn how to use critical thinking skills when you try to make an argument.[/quote]

Well said.

[Dave]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1701828' date='Nov 15 2008, 02:14 AM']The point you're missing is that you saying it's wrong to someone doesn't make it so. It isn't your mission in life to form consciences. Leave it to God, or, for the love of Jesus, learn how to use critical thinking skills when you try to make an argument.[/quote]

It's not my saying it's wrong that makes it so; it's CHURCH TEACHING that makes it so. My mission in life is the mission of every Catholic -- to help lead souls to heaven. Often that may mean correcting someone who needs it. It's absolutely wrong to take the attitude of, "They may be invincibly ignorant, so I won't say anything." We can't assume people don't have invincible ignorance on many things (although I'd say the issue of murder is different), but we can't assume people DO have it either! HOWEVER, if someone has been repeatedly admonished but still chooses to go ahead and do their own thing, then it wouldn't seem to me that they're really ignorant at all.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Dave

[Norseman82]

Update: The Charleston diocesan administrator has issued a statement:

[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0805820.htm"]http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0805820.htm[/url]

[Dave]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1702106' date='Nov 15 2008, 02:20 PM']Update: The Charleston diocesan administrator has issued a statement:

[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0805820.htm"]http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0805820.htm[/url][/quote]

The article says in part:

[quote]Msgr. Laughlin said that Father Newman's comments "diverted the church's clear teaching on abortion" by pulling it into the "partisan political arena."

Quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Msgr. Laughlin said that Christ gives everyone "the freedom to explore our own conscience and to make our own decisions while adhering to the law of God and the teachings of the faith."

"Therefore, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion," he said.[/quote]

Partisan political arena? No, I don't think so. Fr. Newman merely addressed voting for Obama; he didn't say anything about voting for Democrats or Republicans in general!

Also, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, then he or she would have no reason to be denied Communion, as he or she would already have made the right choice! What's right is right for everybody, and what's wrong is wrong for everybody.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Dave' post='1702131' date='Nov 15 2008, 12:38 PM']Also, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, then he or she would have no reason to be denied Communion, as he or she would already have made the right choice! What's right is right for everybody, and what's wrong is wrong for everybody.[/quote]

bravo.

[hérisson]

[quote name='Dave' post='1702067' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:53 PM']It's not my saying it's wrong that makes it so; it's CHURCH TEACHING that makes it so.[/quote]

You are mistaken. Church teaching is of course against abortion, but does not say " Voting for Obama is wrong ". If a person honestly thinks that Obama's policy is going to reduce the number of abortions (which is zwergel88's case), then he might very well vote for him. Once again, following your conscience is a duty, but not a sin, and certainly not a mortal sin.

Edited November 16, 2008 by hérisson

[hérisson]

[quote name='Dave' post='1702131' date='Nov 15 2008, 08:38 PM']The article says in part:


Also, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, then he or she would have no reason to be denied Communion, as he or she would already have made the right choice![/quote]

The Church does not deny communion to anybody just because of whom that person votes for.
Once again, your interpretation of Church teaching is wrong.

[hérisson]

[quote name='Dave' post='1702067' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:53 PM']My mission in life is the mission of every Catholic -- to help lead souls to heaven. Often that may mean correcting someone who needs it. It's absolutely wrong to take the attitude of, "They may be invincibly ignorant, so I won't say anything." We can't assume people don't have invincible ignorance on many things (although I'd say the issue of murder is different), but we can't assume people DO have it either! HOWEVER, if someone has been repeatedly admonished but still chooses to go ahead and do their own thing, then it wouldn't seem to me that they're really ignorant at all.[/quote]

You may try to convince somebody that Obama is not the right choice. That would be perfect. However, the way you try to do it is likely to produce the opposite effect.
Telling someone he is in mortal sin if the person wasn't even aware of the fact that what he did was wrong, that kind of attitude simply reveals that you ignore part of the Church's teaching on mortal sin. In other words : you are not sufficiently trained to teach people the way you pretend to do, and you should thus abstain from that kind of counterproductive attitude.

[hérisson]

[quote name='Dave' post='1702067' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:53 PM']My mission in life is the mission of every Catholic -- to help lead souls to heaven. Often that may mean correcting someone who needs it. It's absolutely wrong to take the attitude of, "They may be invincibly ignorant, so I won't say anything." We can't assume people don't have invincible ignorance on many things (although I'd say the issue of murder is different), but we can't assume people DO have it either! HOWEVER, if someone has been repeatedly admonished but still chooses to go ahead and do their own thing, then it wouldn't seem to me that they're really ignorant at all.[/quote]

You may try to convince somebody that Obama is not the right choice. That would be perfect. However, the way you try to do it is likely to produce the opposite effect.
Telling someone he is in mortal sin if the person wasn't even aware of the fact that what he did was wrong, that kind of attitude simply reveals that you ignore part of the Church's teaching on mortal sin. In other words : you are not sufficiently trained to teach people the way you pretend to do, and you should thus abstain from that kind of counterproductive argumentation.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Dave' post='1702067' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:53 PM']My mission in life is the mission of every Catholic -- to help lead souls to heaven. Often that may mean correcting someone who needs it.

HOWEVER, if someone has been repeatedly admonished but still chooses to go ahead and do their own thing, then it wouldn't seem to me that they're really ignorant at all.[/quote]


Luke 6:39-42

[mortify]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1702548' date='Nov 16 2008, 11:20 AM']You are mistaken. Church teaching is of course against abortion, but does not say " Voting for Obama is wrong ". If a person honestly thinks that Obama's policy is going to reduce the number of abortions (which is zwergel88's case), then he might very well vote for him. Once again, following your conscience is a duty, but not a sin, and certainly not a mortal sin.[/quote]

So if a person with a malformed conscience desires to perform something they know the Divine Law teaches is intrinsically evil, that person has a [b]duty[/b] to obey their conscience? I hope you understand such a person would be committing a mortal sin.

Mortal sin is not dependent on intention but whether the act is grave and whether we perform it knowingly and willingly.

The Bible and Church both teach that the ends do[u] not[/u] justify the means. We may NEVER perform an intrinsically evil act even if greater good may come of it.

Now many people have been [i]deceived[/i] by the idea that Obama's policies will improve the economy and therefore decrease abortion even though his policies will also undo many pro-life regulations. This does not justify a vote for Obama because this decrease in abortions amounts to nothing more than a hypothesis (and a poor one because we know the economy wont improve for many years to come), while it's a fact that he will override pro-life regulations and bring new pro-choice regulations.

Any Catholic who voted for Obama knowing that abortion is an intrinsic evil cooperates with Obama's policies. I don't think Fr Newman is too rash for denying these people communion because in fact they have knowingly and willingly separated themselves from Church teaching, and we don't even allow innocent Protestants the privilege of sharing Communion because it reflects a unity in faith.

Ultimately I think great responsibility falls on the Bishops and priests who utterly failed to help their congregations vote properly. That vague document produced by the USCCB on voting probably helped elect a pro abortionist.


Any serious Catholic living in these times is obligated to take their faith into their own hands because our leaders have largely failed us.

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1701466' date='Nov 15 2008, 12:19 AM']Just to make this clear : I personally don't think that there will be less abortions because of Obama's policy, and I would not have voted for him.[/quote]

Just to come back on this one, because apparently it caused some confusion :
I meant to say " I would not have voted for him if I were an American citizen ".