Priest Says

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2008/11/priest_says_no.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed1"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_...ostPop_Emailed1[/url]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ�s Church and under the judgment of divine law.[/quote]

there's several points that might be missing.

he might be referring only to those who voted because of his stance on abortion as he only said "material cooperation" and not "remote materail cooperation" which it'd be more properly claracterized as if you vote despite prochoice.

he might be mistaken, in that it's not materaial cooperation as he thinks if that's what he thinks.

he might mean remote matieral even though he just said materail.

he said "plausible alteraltive" but this could mean manythings so it's futile to try to figure out if this helps charlify what his stance is.

if his stance is againt only those who vote because of prochoice, then the article is just misleading.

Edited November 14, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dominicansoul]

i think to simplify...

the priest is saying anyone who voted for Obama, regardless of their intentions, are in sin and cannot receive Holy Communion, because by voting for Obama, they have voted for FOCA, they have voted for an end to the laws that have been in place to stop such acts as partial-birth abortion and the murder of babies born alive...

...it was a vote for embryonic stem cell research and harvesting of human parts

it was a vote totally disregarding the respect of human life...

and i agree with this priest...

[thessalonian]

I say rock on!

It's time as Catholics to stand up and be counted. You can't vote for a pro-choice candidate unless there is no alternative (thou I doudt I could even then) and oboma is as pro-choice as it gets.

[Apotheoun]

It is a priest's responsibility to protect the Eucharist from profanation. Moreover, he must also protect those who hold a position that is contrary to the moral doctrine of the Church from compounding their sin by committing an act of sacrilege.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1701148' date='Nov 14 2008, 09:12 AM']I say rock on![/quote]

iawtc

[zwergel88]

I think what this priest did is pretty extreme. I have encountered many more priests who say that a vote for a particular candidate does not constitute a sin if done with proper intentions. I dislike abortion as much as the next person, but I voted for Obama because I believe the net damage to society will be far less during his presidency. Abortion is LEGAL people, and I hightly doubt that this would have changed in a McCain administration. It certainly didn't change in the Bush administration, because while late term abortions, which account for less than 1% of all abortions performed, have been outlawed, the net number of abortions performed increased from the Clinton administration which saw a much lower number of abortions per capita. To think that any particular administration would be able to end abortion is ludacris given that a majority of people nationwide would not support the total criminalization of abortion.

I completely do not see where the priest has the authority to make this statement. It seems completely ridiculous. In my diocese the bishop, like most other bishops has said that a Catholic may vote for whomever the choose with good reason. My good reason is that I sincerely believe that social-economic conditions will improve under Obama's administration to such an extent that the net number of abortions performed will be less than in a McCain administration, which might have suceeded in outlawing a limited number of specific abortion procedures, but not the vast majority of abortions, which in turn might increase as a result of other conditions that might arise from this hypothetical administration's governance.

So I am done with people telling me how to vote, telling me that I'm a bad Catholic and cooperating in evil. I am completely done with this nonsense. I made my choice to vote for Obama after careful consideration of all factors and I made it in good conscience and I don't tihnk it is anyone's business to judge me for it.

[Apotheoun]

Salvation comes from conforming ourselves to Christ, and not from obstinately persisting in evil.

[Theosis3]

In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... Amen.

If someone can vote for a candidate or even agree and support any person, institution or group that violates the commandments in sort of way, we have to seriously consider what we are supporting and remember that we will be judged... At the time we may not see it, but we have to look at God and His Church to provide guidance, an answer.

100 years ago slavery was acceptable, many times by good hearted people. But they were wrong. Add to this child labor, which was common in the United States. Yet again, it was wrong. I'm convinced that many people will look towards abortion many years from now and see very clearly as we see those issues in that they are 100% wrong. You cannot aim for 'limiting abortions' just as you cannot aim for 'limiting slavery'.

That being said, if Catholics voted in line with their faith, I strongly believe that abortion could come to an end sooner rather then later. There are nearly 70 million Catholics in the United States, about 20 percent of the electorate. The problem is, many of us seem to be Catholic up until we enter the voting booth, then Church teaching is replaced by 'our personal opinion'. If your personal opinion is not in line with what the Church has proclaimed for over a thousands years, then that means we are wrong and have to change our mind. This is not saying that you cannot think for yourself, but this is saying be careful about distancing your beliefs with the beliefs of the church... Not just the Pope, or the Bishop, but the entire Church, what do the early Fathers say about issues, etc. etc. Our belief, our behaviors, our thoughts, they should all be based upon Jesus Christ and His Church, not our own 'interpretations' of issues. Sadly, in this situation it seems as if more evangelical Christians are more 'Catholic' when it comes to voting according to their faith FIRST. In sha' Allah, may this change soon...

[Dave]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1701331' date='Nov 14 2008, 03:23 PM']I think what this priest did is pretty extreme. I have encountered many more priests who say that a vote for a particular candidate does not constitute a sin if done with proper intentions. I dislike abortion as much as the next person, but I voted for Obama because I believe the net damage to society will be far less during his presidency. Abortion is LEGAL people, and I hightly doubt that this would have changed in a McCain administration. It certainly didn't change in the Bush administration, because while late term abortions, which account for less than 1% of all abortions performed, have been outlawed, the net number of abortions performed increased from the Clinton administration which saw a much lower number of abortions per capita. To think that any particular administration would be able to end abortion is ludacris given that a majority of people nationwide would not support the total criminalization of abortion.

I completely do not see where the priest has the authority to make this statement. It seems completely ridiculous. In my diocese the bishop, like most other bishops has said that a Catholic may vote for whomever the choose with good reason. My good reason is that I sincerely believe that social-economic conditions will improve under Obama's administration to such an extent that the net number of abortions performed will be less than in a McCain administration, which might have suceeded in outlawing a limited number of specific abortion procedures, but not the vast majority of abortions, which in turn might increase as a result of other conditions that might arise from this hypothetical administration's governance.

So I am done with people telling me how to vote, telling me that I'm a bad Catholic and cooperating in evil. I am completely done with this nonsense. I made my choice to vote for Obama after careful consideration of all factors and I made it in good conscience and I don't tihnk it is anyone's business to judge me for it.[/quote]

Of course he had the authority to make that statement. To vote for Obama is to be an accessory to another's sin regardless of one's personal intentions. Are you sure the bishop of your diocese actually said you can vote for whoever-the-heck-you-want just so long as it's done with good intentions? Or are you twisting his words? Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not going to even comment about your reasons for thinking Obama would do more to limit abortion than McCain, as many people have shown you how and why your reasoning is faulty, but you refuse to listen.

No one has judged you, and you need to quit claiming that they are. What people have done is give you fraternal correction. But you get upset and play the victim when people do so. Why are you getting upset and crying "Judging!!!!" when there's no judging that's been done? If your conscience is at peace, then you have no reason to get upset. But reactions like yours suggest that in your heart of hearts, your conscience isn't at peace.

Finally, since you ignored what the Church has said about voting, then you can't very well claim that you made your decision in good conscience. You too need to stop receiving Holy Communion until you've repented of cooperating in the evil of abortion (that's what you did no matter what your true intentions were). Of course, if you refuse to consider your actions sinful and continue to receive the sacraments, that's your choice. But you'll have to answer for it on Judgment Day, and then you won't be able to plead ignorance.

In closing, there is NOTHING judgmental about what I wrote. I never said you were evil or going to hell. But I did say that what you did was objectively sinful and that, without repentance, you endanger your soul.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1701331' date='Nov 14 2008, 02:23 PM']Abortion is LEGAL people.[/quote]

By who's standards? Definitely not by God's!!!

[quote]I completely do not see where the priest has the authority to make this statement.[/quote]

A priest is an "alter-Christus." He has the responsibility of all the souls he pastors to. My queestion is, why haven't more priests cared enough to bring this point to light?

[quote]My good reason is that I sincerely believe that social-economic conditions will improve under Obama's administration to such an extent that the net number of abortions performed will be less than in a McCain administration, which might have suceeded in outlawing a limited number of specific abortion procedures, but not the vast majority of abortions, which in turn might increase as a result of other conditions that might arise from this hypothetical administration's governance.[/quote]

Satan's kingdom will not stand if it is divided against itself. Satan isn't stupid. He's going to do everything he can in the time he has left to continue to rot minds and brings souls over to his kingdom...that being said, why would Obama's ideas to destroy all obstacles and give women free reign over their choices to murder their children lessen Abortion? It's a contradiction! To say that Obama will lessen abortions by making Abortion more deadly and more accessible in the most extreme circumstances is an even more ridiculous statement than what you consider what this priest has said...

[quote]So I am done with people telling me how to vote, telling me that I'm a bad Catholic and cooperating in evil. I am completely done with this nonsense. I made my choice to vote for Obama after careful consideration of all factors and I made it in good conscience and I don't tihnk it is anyone's business to judge me for it.[/quote]

I am sorry you feel that way. But hey, contrition comes with humility. And if you are absolutely convinced you did no wrong, how can anyone help you to see otherwise?

The same can be said of your rhetoric against those of us who want to show Catholics who voted for Obama the error of their ways...we have received just as much criticism for our point of views throughout the campaign. Now this poor priest will have to endure much criticism, and I'm almost convinced will even be reprimanded for his brave stand...

Edited November 14, 2008 by dominicansoul

[hérisson]

Ok, I fully agree on the priest's opposition to abortion and to Obama, but could a priest apply the same reasoning to unjust war (without, of course, comparing the number of victims) ?

Things might then get complicated for American voters...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1701450' date='Nov 14 2008, 04:56 PM']Ok, I fully agree on the priest's opposition to abortion and to Obama, but could a priest apply the same reasoning to unjust war (without, of course, comparing the number of victims) ?

Things might then get complicated for American voters...[/quote]

unjust war is never approved by the Church, so i believe a priest could do the same in that regard...

...but remember the topic at hand, in what context this priest is saying this...

Americans just raised to power what can possibly be the most pro-death president in our history. Obama was not a choice for any Catholic to vote for.

If by unjust war, you are speaking of the War in Iraq, Pope Benedict had expressed the opinion that the war should have never been started, but since our troops are now in Iraq, we can't just pull out without taking into regard the consequences and what they mean to the iraqi people...to pull out and not finish what we started would be unjust...

..in this particular election, "unjust war" wasn't even an issue...Abortion was THE issue...

Edited November 14, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='Dave' post='1701403' date='Nov 14 2008, 10:41 PM']Of course he had the authority to make that statement. To vote for Obama is to be an accessory to another's sin regardless of one's personal intentions. Are you sure the bishop of your diocese actually said you can vote for whoever-the-heck-you-want just so long as it's done with good intentions? Or are you twisting his words? Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not going to even comment about your reasons for thinking Obama would do more to limit abortion than McCain, as many people have shown you how and why your reasoning is faulty, but you refuse to listen.

No one has judged you, and you need to quit claiming that they are. What people have done is give you fraternal correction. But you get upset and play the victim when people do so. Why are you getting upset and crying "Judging!!!!" when there's no judging that's been done? If your conscience is at peace, then you have no reason to get upset. But reactions like yours suggest that in your heart of hearts, your conscience isn't at peace.

Finally, since you ignored what the Church has said about voting, then you can't very well claim that you made your decision in good conscience. You too need to stop receiving Holy Communion until you've repented of cooperating in the evil of abortion (that's what you did no matter what your true intentions were). Of course, if you refuse to consider your actions sinful and continue to receive the sacraments, that's your choice. But you'll have to answer for it on Judgment Day, and then you won't be able to plead ignorance.

In closing, there is NOTHING judgmental about what I wrote. I never said you were evil or going to hell. But I did say that what you did was objectively sinful and that, without repentance, you endanger your soul.[/quote]

Just to make this clear : I personally don't think that there will be less abortions because of Obama's policy, and I would not have voted for him.

However, the Church teaches us that a person must follow his/her conscience ; not following your conscience would be a sin. Of course, conscience must also be informed, but that's a lifelong process. If somebody sincerely does his best to discern who might be the better president, then we do not have a right to tell that person he acted sinfully in voting for that candidate. The person may have made a wrong judgment, but that does not mean that the act was objectively sinful.
In a personal conversation, like in confession, one might find out that the person did not do all he could to discern what was the best thing to do (yet even then it takes a lot of time, listening, prudence...) ; yet in a discussion forum like this, we should not pretend to do so, and even less to tell somebody he should stop receiving communion.

In other words : we should be very careful in making judgments about other people's consciences, especially on a public forum where everybody can read what you say...

Edited November 14, 2008 by Fr. Bruno

[hérisson]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1701462' date='Nov 15 2008, 12:12 AM']unjust war is never approved by the Church, so i believe a priest could do the same in that regard...

...but remember the topic at hand, in what context this priest is saying this...

Americans just raised to power what can possibly be the most pro-death president in our history. Obama was not a choice for any Catholic to vote for.[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1701462' date='Nov 15 2008, 12:12 AM']If by unjust war, you are speaking of the War in Iraq, Pope Benedict had expressed the opinion that the war should have never been started, but since our troops are now in Iraq, we can't just pull out without taking into regard the consequences and what they mean to the iraqi people...to pull out and not finish what we started would be unjust...[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1701462' date='Nov 15 2008, 12:12 AM']..in this particular election, "unjust war" wasn't even an issue...Abortion was THE issue...[/quote]

But I'm not talking about this particular election, but about principals. In four years from now, you'll probably have to vote again, and you don't know who the candidates will be. One might well be "pro choice" (very likely), another might be in favor of an unjust war (who knows ?).
So, if you agree with the principle that a priest may give in public explicit instructions on whom to vote for, then things can get indeed very complicated (as I said) : every single priest can then be criticized either for not taking stand against the "pro-war candidate" or for not taking position against the "pro-abortion candidate". People will wonder which priest they have to listen to. And there will be a lot of painful and harmful divisions.
Pastors should do their best to train people's consciences, insist on the importance of pro-life issues, but not replace people's consciences by their own.

Edited November 14, 2008 by hérisson