I Feel Sheltered

[jeffpugh]

Oh come now! What's wrong with a nice Reel step?

[MissyP89]

Why are we bickering about dancing? Where is CHRIST in you all?

I find it highly unlikely that our Lord would turn up His nose at anyone trying to worship. This doesn't mean I want liturgical dance and praise & worship music in Mass; I don't. I just don't see how freaking out over a dancer matters at all to our lives in the Faith.

[Noel's angel]

There is a place and a time for everything.

People were asking where/when dance may be acceptable in the Liturgy. They got answers which other people didn't like. I can't help if someone doesn't want to agree with Church teaching.

Let's let Cardinal Arinze have his say:

Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years -- or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents -- some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

[b]Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God -- what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That's not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.[/b]

So all those that want to entertain us -- after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don't come to clap. We don't come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don't misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: "you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don't dance?"

A moment -- we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it's all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap -- don't you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap -- there is something wrong -- immediately. When they clap -- a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people's minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.
[b]
Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.
[/b]
I saw in one place -- I will not tell you where -- where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it -- they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

[b]Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it.[/b]

[b]Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged.[/b] And somebody introduces something funny -- is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.



Who is going to call him a hypocrite? Who is going to tell him he is being disrespectful to others' cultures? I doubt anyone will...

Edited November 12, 2008 by Noel's angel

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1700177' date='Nov 12 2008, 11:14 AM']People on here were simply expressing the opinion (which is also Church teaching) that liturgical dance is not appropriate, except in specific circumstances (i.e. when celebrating Mass in Africa). That is not showing disrespect to anyone's culture. I'm Irish but do I want to do Irish dancing at Mass? No. Because that WOULD be disrespectful.[/quote]


[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1700226' date='Nov 12 2008, 12:11 PM']There is a place and a time for everything.

People were asking where/when dance may be acceptable in the Liturgy. They got answers which other people didn't like. I can't help if someone doesn't want to agree with Church teaching.

Let's let Cardinal Arinze have his say:

Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years -- or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents -- some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

[b]Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God -- what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That's not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.[/b]

So all those that want to entertain us -- after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don't come to clap. We don't come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don't misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: "you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don't dance?"

A moment -- we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it's all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap -- don't you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap -- there is something wrong -- immediately. When they clap -- a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people's minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.
[b]
Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.
[/b]
I saw in one place -- I will not tell you where -- where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it -- they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

[b]Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it.[/b]

[b]Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged.[/b] And somebody introduces something funny -- is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.



Who is going to call him a hypocrite? Who is going to tell him he is being disrespectful to others' cultures? I doubt anyone will...[/quote]
you so totally rock NA!!

[Noel's angel]

awww thanks

Cardinal Arinze rocks way more though! (As do you )

Edited November 12, 2008 by Noel's angel

[Brigid]

Noel's Angel said everything necessary. thanks, NA.

[Noel's angel]

No probs

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1700259' date='Nov 12 2008, 01:17 PM']awww thanks

Cardinal Arinze rocks way more though! (As do you )[/quote]
+J.M.J.+

[Luthien]

Thank you Noel for finding that article, thats all that I could think of when I was reading this thread.

I love dance, but anything that distracts me from the verticle aspect of Mass I cannot abide by. I have one hour a week (sometimes more, but thats not the norm for most) when I have a chance to commune with my Lord, I can go to Heinz Theatre if I want to see dance.

Im not trying to be mean or judgemental, I dont judge the hearts or the cultures that this kind of thing happens, Im just desperate to preserve what I hold dear, the Mass, which needs no sprucing up from the outside. (i.e dancers)

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1700221' date='Nov 12 2008, 02:06 PM']Why are we bickering about dancing? Where is CHRIST in you all?

I find it highly unlikely that our Lord would turn up His nose at anyone trying to worship. This doesn't mean I want liturgical dance and praise & worship music in Mass; I don't. I just don't see how freaking out over a dancer matters at all to our lives in the Faith.[/quote]

i have to say something, with all due respect...and you know i love you missy...

i think that in the past few months, there has been a widespread effort to be overly critical of people's post on this phorum. I can honestly say, I do not believe posters here want to be rude, or insensitive... People are just posting ideas and thoughts and observations. We need to chill and take them for what they are, with a grain of salt. I can't help but feel that the majority of those who have been calling people out for rudeness and "uncharitableness" have themselves been rude and uncharitable in the manner in which they criticize others. It is like you all have been riding a high horse, whether it be in this section or the election section or wherever...you guys are not right all the time, in fact, you can be downright judgmental!

"Where is Christ in you all?"

That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

CHRIST is in all of us, and He loves the most wretched of us all..(that's me!)

And how do you know God likes the dancing? Why didn't God approve of Cain's offering? Why did He only approve of Abel's? Think about it. Why did God give the Jews such detailed rubrics on how to worship Him? Why has He continued to give us rubrics to follow in the Mass? There is a certain manner God wants us to approach Him at His Altar. It isn't fair for groups and people with agendas to push their own ideas into the worship at Mass. Mass is too too Sacred for other's inspirations. We must use the norms God has given us through His Church. Lest "Mass" becomes a do-whatever-appeals-to-us-free-for-all...which sadly, it has become in certain places...and yes, it definitely does affect the Faith in those areas!

God isn't the one turning His nose up at dancers...it's the other way around...we turn our noses up at God when we decide what is the better way to worship Him....

[tinytherese]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1700661' date='Nov 13 2008, 02:32 PM']i have to say something, with all due respect...and you know i love you missy...

i think that in the past few months, there has been a widespread effort to be overly critical of people's post on this phorum. I can honestly say, I do not believe posters here want to be rude, or insensitive... People are just posting ideas and thoughts and observations. We need to chill and take them for what they are, with a grain of salt. I can't help but feel that the majority of those who have been calling people out for rudeness and "uncharitableness" have themselves been rude and uncharitable in the manner in which they criticize others. It is like you all have been riding a high horse, whether it be in this section or the election section or wherever...you guys are not right all the time, in fact, you can be downright judgmental!

"Where is Christ in you all?"

That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

CHRIST is in all of us, and He loves the most wretched of us all..(that's me!)

And how do you know God likes the dancing? Why didn't God approve of Cain's offering? Why did He only approve of Abel's? Think about it. Why did God give the Jews such detailed rubrics on how to worship Him? Why has He continued to give us rubrics to follow in the Mass? There is a certain manner God wants us to approach Him at His Altar. It isn't fair for groups and people with agendas to push their own ideas into the worship at Mass. Mass is too too Sacred for other's inspirations. We must use the norms God has given us through His Church. Lest "Mass" becomes a do-whatever-appeals-to-us-free-for-all...which sadly, it has become in certain places...and yes, it definitely does affect the Faith in those areas!

God isn't the one turning His nose up at dancers...it's the other way around...we turn our noses up at God when we decide what is the better way to worship Him....[/quote]

[MissyP89]

Okay, DS, let me try again. I was having a rough moment when I posted that--so I apologise for blowing up.

(And on an irrelevant note, I posted I think twice in the election section...I did my best effort to avoid being there, because I knew it was a situation that would bring out my rough side.)

I think liturgical dance is ... odd. I don't think it belongs in America, or anywhere else, really. I do respect that in some cultures, honor and praise can be shown in different ways. Look at the charismatic movement within the Church, for example.

Anyhow, what I was trying to say is that I thought it was rather silly that we were criticizing this woman. Someone brought up the question of Samoan culture, and I think it deserves some looking into. Remember WYD? Raymond Arroyo said during the commentary that it was a traditional dance of the indigenous people there. There were tons of cultures represented there, and for that reason, I thought it was okay. (What was not okay was the crazy music. There still needs to be an element of the sacred in the music we use for worship.)

Regarding my other comments: I'll be honest, I was just frustrated. I feel like we as a phamily can be overly nitpicky and critical...at the end of the day, Jesus is still really present in a valid Mass. Maybe it's because my church is one of those hippy NO parishes (I am there for the wonderful priests), but I'm not terribly sensitive to odd things going on at Mass, because I go for Jesus, and He still comes even if there is craziness involved.

Edit: About standards of worship and knowing what God desires, I can't speak for Him. I just have my doubts that God would be less appreciative of our worship if it isn't what he would ideally desires from us. The only analogy I can think of here is that if my OH were to get me roses instead of carnations (my favorites), I would still be touched by the gesture, even if I don't particular care for roses.

A honest question: David danced before the Lord in the Ark. Was that wrong of him? Not trying to make an argument here, trying to get your perspective.

I hope that what I'm trying to convey makes more sense now; I meant no animosity in saying what I did earlier and above.

Pax Christi,
Missy

Edited November 13, 2008 by MissyP89

[dominicansoul]

I hear ya, Missy! And I knew you would understand where I was coming from, because I would never want to offend you by any of my posts...

Your points are very well taken. You are right, in order for our points to be taken more seriously, we do need to give them more lovingly. Criticizing this dancer was a big no-no, and we need to be more aware of seeing people where they are at in their faith formation. How do we know where this woman's heart was while she danced? She may as very well have been lifting it up to God. In that case, we cannot judge her heart and know what God thought of it all...

I belong to a parish that has a school. During the week, the students go to Adoration with the faculty and staff. I always cringe when I see these teachers reprimanding students because they are not "paying attention" by talking to each other, or playing with their hand-held nintendo's (or whatever they are called these days...) and text messaging...I cringe because getting angry at them doesn't TEACH those children anything about JESUS in the BLESSED SACRAMENT. The reason they are behaving in such a manner, is because they have no real relationship with Christ, and they are oblivious to what their Faith is all about. IN that, these TEACHERS have failed as instructors of the Faith. We all know Catechesis has suffered greatly these 40 years...

My first thought would be to let these kids be kids before the Blessed Sacrament. Their hearts are not purposely offending Jesus...they seem clueless on how to behave in Church, but so do so many of these adults and teachers, too! I always have to think that Jesus loves them "where they are at" and HE's working on them...and what can I do to spread the Fullness of our Faith, so that one day, they will be able to come to Adoration without all the distractions?

As for David, I know he danced before the Ark of the Covenant NAKED...not sure if I would want to see that start happening at the Mass!

[CatherineM]

We actually discussed liturgical dance in pastoral theology. The consensus was not positive.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1699041' date='Nov 10 2008, 05:40 PM']This is in Australia, among Samoans. I doubt reporting this to your bishop is going to help much. A little open mindness might be nice on this phorum. Attitudes here scare me more then someone dancing in their culture at their Mass in their country.,[/quote]

DANCING, LITURGICAL
Moving rhythmically to music as part of a religious ceremony. Certain forms of dancing have at various times been introduced into Catholic worship, but the Church has set down two conditions. First, to the extent to which the body is a reflection of the soul, dancing has to express sentiments of faith and adoration in order to become a prayer. And second, dancing must be under the discipline of competent Church authority. "Concretely, there are cultures in which this is possible in so far as dancing is still reflective of religious values and becomes a clear manifestation of them. Such is the case among the Ethiopians. In their cultures, even today, there is the religious ritualized dance, clearly distinct from the martial dance and from the amorous dance." The same is found among Christians in the Syriac and Byzantine traditions. "However, the same criterion and judgment cannot be applied in the Western culture. Here dancing is tied in with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses; such dancing, in general, is not pure. For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever."
What about dancing outside the liturgy? This is permissible, but only under certain conditions. Thus "if the proposal for a religious dance in the West is to be acceptable, care must be taken that this occurs outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas that are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, priests must always be excluded from the dance" (Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship, Notitiae, 1975, 11, pp. 202-5). When a group of Samoans came to Rome for a missionary festival in 1971, [color="#FF0000"]they assisted at Mass in St. Peter's and then carried out their dance in St. Peter's Square, outside the church. [/color]
All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.