Father

[IcePrincessKRS]

Thats what I like about this place, we have nice civil dialogue and in most threads it doesn't disintegrate into "I'm right," "no I'M right" " NO, I'M right!"

[Aloysius]

[quote]The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification - Brian Schwertley

There are many reasons why all Bible-believing Christians should have a solid grasp of the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification. First, the Roman theory of justification is a complete denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a damnable heresy. Anyone who adheres to such a gross perversion of the gospel cannot be saved. Second, it is a subtle doctrine of Satan. The papal perversion of justification is one of cleverest perversions of Scripture that the mind of man has ever conceived. This papal doctrine is not the typical amateur heresy one finds in many cults today; it was formed over a period of one thousand years. It is a combination of errors found in the Patristic fathers, and the speculations of the Aristotelian-influenced medieval scholastic theologians.[/quote]
well, then, this guy seems trustworthy. he seems to be a good Bible believing Christian, other than [i]St. Matthew 16:18[/i] which says the gates of hell won't prevail against the Church, and he is clearly asserting that the patristic fathers some of whom were taught by the Apostles themselves began leading the Church into a surrender to the gates of the netherworld by promulgating heresy.

[quote] The doctrine was fully developed at the Council of Trent (1543-1563) in reaction to the great Reformation doctrine of justification by faith alone. The Second Vatican Council (1965) and the recent Roman Catholic Catechism (1994) both clearly affirm Trent (all Roman Catholics are supposed to affirm the teachings of Trent as infallible truth). Since Trent, the Roman church is truly a synagogue of Satan. Her pope, cardinals, bishops and priests are all antichrists, enemies of the gospel. [/quote]
yep, very good credentials. the doctrine was believed by many many ppl prior to Trent, in particular the early Church as a whole like St. Paul [i]Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5, 8; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5; 1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; Phil. 2:12; Romans 5:9-10; Romans 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim 2:11-12; Hebrews 9:28
[/i] St. Peter [i]1 Peter 1:9 [/i] and St. James [i]James 5:15[/i]
along with the early fathers who he claims were in error

[quote]Third, there has been a move by many Protestants for closer ties with Rome. This move reflects an ignorance of the basic theological differences between true Christianity and Romanism, and a shift within Protestantism away from objective justification toward spiritual existentialism. [/quote]
so he disagrees with ecumenism! what folley! this is a slap in the face to Christ when He prayed that we would all be one [i]St. John 17:21[/i]

[quote]Fourth, Romanism has adopted an aggressive apologetic toward Protestants. There are some intellectual ex-Protestants who are defending Rome on the radio, internet, and books. These papal apologists frequently take advantage of Evangelicals who have a poor understanding of the Roman view. In order to avoid the accusation that this author is misrepresenting the Roman Catholic view of justification, quotes from Rome’s own doctrinal statements will be provided for each assertion. [/quote]
ahah! finally, someone who is not Catholic can shed some light on how CATHOLICS are taking CATHOLOCISM out of context. i IMPLORE your God-given human reason, your common sense, to see him as more likely taking it out of context than people who are actually Catholic!

[quote]At first glance, Roman Catholicism sounds very biblical. The Council of Trent declared: “If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ: let him be anathema.”53 The Roman Catholic Catechism also appears very evangelical at times: “Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.”54 A good Roman Catholic would say that Christians are saved solely by God’s grace. “Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.”55 The statement regarding salvation from the document Evangelicals and Catholics Together also appears evangelical: “We affirm together that we are justified by grace through faith because of Christ.... All who accept Christ as Lord and Savior are brothers and sisters in Christ.”56 [/quote]
okay okay... he's seemin a lil more rational, but my spidey sense is tingling, [color=red]DANGER: ARROGANT OUTSIDE VIEW WORD TWISTING AHEAD![/color]

[quote]Although Roman Catholic doctrine sounds very evangelical at times, a close look at their teachings regarding salvation reveals a clear but clever denial of the biblical doctrine of justification. Gerstner writes: “Romanists many times fool Protestants by their claim to teach ‘by grace alone’ (sola gratia). And they sometimes fool themselves when they are more evangelical than a Romanist can honestly be. Romanists are saved by their works which come from grace, according to their teaching. It is not the grace but the works which come from it that save them!”57 Virtually anyone can say “I am saved by grace” or “I am saved solely by Christ.” One must look at the fine print to understand what lies behind these statements. An orthodox Protestant and a good Roman Catholic mean two completely different things when they confess Christ. [/quote]
we understand what constitutes faith better. Faith without works is dead. [i]James 2:17[/i]

[quote]
Basic Statement of the Difference

Before going into detail, a brief statement of the difference between Romanism and the biblical view of justification is in order. The Bible teaches that justification is a legal declaration of God in heaven regarding the sinner who believes on earth. Justification is objective. The Romanist confounds the doctrine of justification with sanctification. “The Tridentine theory makes inward holiness in conjunction with the merits of Christ the ground of justification. It founds human salvation upon two corner-stones.... The unintentional confounding of the distinction between justification and sanctification, which appears occasionally in the Patristic writers, becomes a deliberate and unemphatic identification, in the scheme of the Papal church.”58 [/quote]
hmmm... the Bible really says that? "Justification is a legal declaration of God in heaven regarding the sinner who believes on earth" hmm... maybe he should pick up a [color=blue]BIBLE [/color] Justification is an infusion by God, not just a declaration that your justified but He actually MAKES you justified by Christ's Resurrection [i]Romans 4:25[/i] David calls out for God to MAKE HIM JUSTIFIED many times, not for him to legally declair him justified [i]Psalm 51:1-2, 7-9, 10[/i] Isaiah speaks of his sins actually being changed, he's not gonna just be declaired justified he's goin to be MADE justified [i]Isaiah 1:18; Isaiah 43:25; Isaiah 44:22[/i] a new heart is created for us, we are renewed, not just declaired new but thouroughly made anew [i]Ezechial 36:26-27[/i] inner attributes make a man blessed such as being poor in spirit, meek, and pure of heart [i]Matt. 5:3,5,8[/i] righteousness is something that we do [i]St. Matthew 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35 [/i]
we are not just declared righteous in the Bible, people PRACTICE righteousness, we must beware not to practice it before men [i]St. Matthew 6:1[/i]

something is credited as righteousness; CREDIT=elogisthe, like a book entry. it's what is acfually there not just a declaration.

when God declares something: IT COMES TO BE [i]Genesis 1:3[/i] it's not some legal declaration from God, it's making one righteous.

anyway: read all these verses [i]Psalm 51:1-2; Psalm 51:7-9; Psalm 51:10; Isaiah 1:18; Isaiah 43:25; Isaiah 44:22; Ezek. 36:26-27; Matt. 5:3,5,8; Matt. 5:6; Lk 6:21; Matt. 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35; Matt. 5:28; Matt. 6:1; Matt. 15:18; Mark 7:15; Matt. 23:25-28; Luke 11:39-40; John 1:29; Acts 3:19; Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11; Rom. 4:3; Rom. 5:17; Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 4:22-24; Phil. 2:13; Titus 3:5; 1 John 1:7,9; 1 John 3:7,10; Rev. 19:8; 2 Peter 1:4; 1 Cor. 3:9
[/i]
[quote]
The Bible teaches that God accepts men solely on the merits of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-4:8; Phil. 3:8-9). Men are declared righteous because their guilt is imputed to Christ on the cross, and Christ’s perfect righteousness is imputed to the believer’s account. Romanism teaches that grace is infused into man and that people are justified only after becoming righteous. Justification is subjective; it is the internal renovation and renewing of man. Men are justified because of what the Holy Spirit does in them. “Justification means that man himself is made just—made pleasing to God in his own person.... A devout Catholic may say: ‘Righteousness by faith means that I cannot save myself, but by faith I can receive God’s transforming grace. His grace can change my heart, and by His grace in my heart I can be acceptable in His sight....’ The focal point of Catholic theology is God’s work of grace within human experience.”59
[/quote]
.... and your point
see the last section for what the bible really talks about righteousness and justification.

[quote]
The Scriptures teach that justification is an instantaneous act of God. It is whole, never repeated, eternal and perfect, not piecemeal or gradual (Jn. 5:25; Lk. 18:13, 14; 23:43; Rom. 4:5; 5:1; 8:3-8). Romanism teaches that justification is a gradual process which may not even be completed in this life. It usually is completed by the tortures of purgatory.60 The Bible teaches that sinners are saved solely because of what God has done in Jesus Christ. Papal doctrine affirms that justification is a cooperative effort between God and man. Man must cooperate with inward grace until he achieves justification. The Roman Catholic believes that good works contribute to his salvation. However, he would argue that since these good works flow from inward grace, that ultimately he is saved by grace and not by works. [/quote]

it's all God's work that justifies us. if we accept God's work, it affects us and justifies us. if we do not God does not force it upon us. it's not this 'cooperation' cuz this guy is changin terms to try to link it to pelagianism which is heresy condemned by the Church herself.

[quote]
Romanism is the most clever attempt of man to take a religion of human merit, works-righteousness and personal achievement and dress it with the terminology of grace. Romanism teaches “the most subtle form of the doctrine of justification by works that has yet appeared, or that can appear. For the doctrines of Trent do not teach, in their canonical statements, that man is justified and accepted at the bar of justice by his law. This is, indeed, the doctrine that prevails in the common practice of the papal church, but it is not the form in which it appears in the Tridentine canons. According to these, man is justified by an inward and spiritual act which is denominated the act of faith; by a truly divine and holy habit or principle infused by the gracious working of the Holy Spirit. The ground of the sinner’s justification is thus a divine and gracious one. God works in the sinful soul to will and to do, and by making it inherently just justifies it. And all this is accomplished through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ; so that, in justification there is a combination of the objective work of Christ with the subjective character of the believer.”61 Protestants who are not aware of these subtleties are often tongue-tied in debates with knowledgeable Roman Catholics, because Romanists insist they do not believe in salvation by works-righteousness. They simply assert that God is the author of infused grace and inherent righteousness. The Romish system is easily exposed as a doctrine of demons when one considers that their theory of an inward infused grace in the heart as a second pillar of justification clearly means that they regard the death of Christ as insufficient for pardon. For them “Christ alone” is not enough. Jesus, according to their statements of faith, did not perfectly satisfy God’s justice by His life and death. Romanism is in reality a cleverly disguised form of humanism.

“The Protestant trusts Christ to save him and the Roman Catholic trusts Christ to help him save himself.”62The Roman Catholic looks at what Christ accomplished as something that enables a person to begin a long journey that possibly leads to salvation. The Protestant looks to Christ and His merits as salvation itself. Good works prove that justification has already occurred. They do not contribute one iota toward salvation.63 [/quote]

the Roman Catholic trusts Christ to save Him. when He is saved, is being saved, and hopes to be eternally saved, it is all by the merit of God. God's grace inspires in him good works, and if these good works are not there his faith dies and thus he looses salvation. one can reject God's salvation, and God will accept that rejection. if i do no works, my faith dies, and i block out his grace.

blah, i grow weary of such ignorance. i shall have more to say later.

Edited March 16, 2004 by Aloysius

[Aloysius]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Mar 16 2004, 03:59 PM'] Don't bother Al, I'm deleting that article. If anyone wants it they can ask Dairy to e-mail it to them. Any piece of garbage that condemns all Catholics to hell in the first paragraph and misrepresents what we teach has no buisness being posted here. Well, you can bother, but I'm still deleting it off. [/quote]
i already started!!!

[IcePrincessKRS]

Its ok Al. Good job refuting it! I guess if anyone wants to do some more debunking they can refer to your post. hehe

[Aloysius]

blah, i'm continuing anyway if iceprincess wants, she can delete my stuff. but i've already gone too far to just stop here.

[quote]The Romanist Theory Examined

The key to understanding Romanism’s heretical view of justification is their false understanding of Christ’s atonement and their rejection of the doctrine of imputation. The papal church teaches that Christ’s satisfaction for sin only applies to sins committed before baptism and to eternal punishments for sins committed after baptism. The satisfaction rendered for the sins committed before baptism is the first plank of justification, but even in this first plank regeneration is confused with justification. Trent, the sixth session, chapter III says: “in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of his passion, the grace whereby they are made just.”64 Chapter IV says: “Justification of the impious is...a translation.... And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration.”65 Chapter VII continues: “the instrumental cause [of justification] is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified.”66 Romanism teaches baptismal regeneration. For baptized infants, baptism removes original sin. Adult converts (according to Rome) have original sin removed as well as all actual sins committed before baptism. This is an ancient heresy that led (quite logically) to the practice of putting off baptism until one was old and about to die.
[/quote]
actually, that was just an abuse of the Christ-taught doctrine that baptism was necessary for salvation [i]John 3:5[/i] and the Peter teaches that baptism saves us [i]1 Peter 3:21[/i]
we are to be baptized out of darkness and into the light as soon as possible, because as Christians we don't look at this legally, as in i have more of a chance at the judgement if i wait and have my sins forgiven just before death. we look at it as as soon as we believe we want to flee sin, and baptism is fleeing from the sins we were in before we believed.

[quote]
Baptismal regeneration which bestows justification was reaffirmed in the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church. “Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.... The grace of Christ...is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in baptism.”67 Even in this initial act of justification the pardoning of sins is not viewed in judicial terms, “which implied a charge of guilt and a sentence of condemnation for what was past, but in the sense of being ‘deleted’ in the heart of the baptized person,—deleted by an infused principle of grace which ‘renewed him in the spirit of his mind.’”68

The Romanist confounding of justification with sanctification starts with this defective view of baptismal regeneration. Baptism is not “the laver of regeneration” but is the visible sign that regeneration has taken place.69 Regeneration does not bestow justification but enables the sinner to believe. Faith, not baptism, is the instrument of justification. Although regeneration logically precedes or coincides with justification, regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit in man which purifies the heart (Jn. 3:5, 6; Ezek. 36:25-26; Col. 2:11). The second aspect of the change which the Holy Spirit effects upon a man’s heart is one of renovation. The scriptural terms used to describe man’s spiritual birth are “born again” (Jn. 3:3), “regeneration” (Tit. 3:5), and “made alive” or “quickened” (Eph. 2:5). The person regenerated by God is called a “new creation” (Gal. 6:15, 2 Cor. 5:17) and a “new man” (Eph. 4:24). Regeneration deals with a man’s heart. It is what enables a person to believe in Christ (1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Cor. 4:6; Ac. 16:13-14). Justification occurs only when a person believes. Justification is judicial; it is not the purification of the heart. The Bible teaches that regeneration is the beginning of the process of sanctification. The Romanist teaches that regeneration is the first ground and also the beginning of the second ground of justification. Hodge explains the Romanist teaching as follows: “As life expels death; as light banishes darkness, so the entrance of this new divine life into the soul expels sin (i.e., sinful habits), and brings forth the fruits of righteousness. Works done after regeneration have real merit, ‘meritum condigni,’ and are the ground of the second justification; the first justification consisting in making the soul inherently just by the infusion of righteousness. According to this view, we are not justified by works done before regeneration, but we are justified for gracious works, i.e., for works which spring from the principle of divine life infused into the heart. The whole ground of our acceptance with God is thus made to be what we are and what we do.”70 [/quote] sign in biblical language does not mean it's not acutality. it means that it perfectly shows forth that which is signifies. by the power of God it does what it signifies. and if you don't think the actual WATER baptism is necessary, may i re-iterate [i]St. John 3:5[/i]

[quote]The second ground of the Romish doctrine of justification flows not only from their confounding of the purificatory aspect of regeneration with pardon, but also their idea that Christ only rendered satisfaction for eternal punishments but not for temporal punishments. Trent says: “If any one saith, that satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntary undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, alms-deeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life: let him be anathema”71 Furthermore: “If any one saith that God always remits the whole punishment together with the guilt, and that the satisfaction of penitents is no other than the faith whereby they apprehend that Christ has satisfied for them: let him be anathema.”72 The Romanist theologians at Trent in their concept regarding the temporal punishments due for sin were following in the footsteps of the medieval scholastic theologians who made a distinction between the guilt of sin and the guilt of punishment. Romanists teach that Christ did not render a satisfaction or pay the price for the guilt of punishment. Out of this legal obligation of punishment flows the entire system of penance and purgatory. Protestants maintain that God chastises His children to aid them in their sanctification. Roman Catholicism teaches that God actually metes out penal sufferings on His people, that Christians are required “as a satisfaction to God’s avenging justice” to pay for their sins.

Roman Catholicism teaches that Christ’s death did part of what was needed, but that man through prayer, fasting, attending masses, rosary prayers, vows of chastity and poverty, and other “good” works completes the job. Boettner writes, “Penance, as the catechisms say, involves confession of one’s sins to a priest and the doing of good works as the only way by which sins committed after baptism can be forgiven.... Romanism...teaches that salvation depends ultimately upon ourselves, upon what we do, that one can ‘earn’ salvation by obedience to the laws of the church....”73 In any debate with a Romanist regarding justification, one must always remember that the confounding of justification with sanctification and the Romanist idea of the necessity of human merit stands upon the foundation of their deficient view of Christ’s sacrifice. A biblical view of Christ’s atoning death would instantly render unnecessary the whole anti-Christian popish system (e.g., the mass, works of penance, purgatory, etc.).
Can the Romanist view that Christ rendered only a partial satisfaction for sin be proven from the Bible? No. The Bible clearly teaches that the satisfaction for sin that Christ offered in His death was perfect and totally sufficient. Jesus removed every bit of a believer’s guilt for sin. This includes all judicial punishments both eternal and temporal. God requires no more propitiatory offerings (e.g., the mass)74 or satisfactions of any kind for sin (e.g. penance and purgatory). Christ satisfied all the claims of the law for believers. The idea that Christ removed the guilt of sin but not its punishment is absurd. If Christ totally removed all the guilt of sin, then He also has removed the punishment for sin both temporal and eternal. “There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13). “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14). Christ’s expiation of sin for His people was either full and complete or it was not. The Bible teaches that Christ’s perfect obedience is the ground of our justification (Rom. 5:18-19); that by His death He removed all guilt and every penalty (Rom. 5:21; 8:1, 32-34; Heb. 10:14; Ps. 103:12; Isa. 44:22, etc.); that He actually achieved reconciliation with God (Rom. 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:18); that He completely propitiated God’s wrath against the elect (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:17); that He paid the ransom price in full (Gal. 3:13; Rom. 7:4, 6; Heb. 9:12; Rev. 5:9; Isa. 53:6; 1 Pet 2:24). “As a creditor does not liberate a surety from prison unless a full payment has been made, so neither could Christ be set free unless he had satisfied to the full. Therefore, since he rose again so gloriously and was raised by the Father himself, there is no room left for doubt concerning the perfection of satisfaction and the full payment of the price of redemption....”75 Once this perfect satisfaction is established, “the Roman dogmas of the sacrifice of the Mass, of human merit and satisfaction in this life and of the purgatorial punishments to be endured hereafter are at once overthrown. For such things cannot be allowed without either accusing his satisfaction of insufficiency or God of injustice (exacting a double price and a double punishment of the same sin).”76
[/quote]

we do not earn salvation. we accept the gift. penance and fasting and good works is like, if the fedex angel from the sky comes to your door with a package of salvation, you signing it didn't mean you earned that salvation, you just hadto accept it. i think the letters of St. Peter wouldn't make sense with this guys logic. for we join in CHrist's suffering [i]1 Peter 4:13[/i] and because of that suffering we endure offering it up to him we partake in the glory to be revealed to us [i]1 Peter 5:1[/i] after we endure to the end [i]St. Mark 13:13[/i]


[quote]The Protestant recognizes that believers often suffer the consequences of sin. The Christian man who backslides, gets drunk and slams his car into a tree—who as a result spends the rest of his life in a wheelchair—suffers the consequences of sin. But his sufferings in no way expiate the guilt of punishment. Furthermore, a man who commits murder and then becomes a Christian in jail must still be executed for his crime, even though Christ has removed the guilt of that sin. His execution is not a temporal punishment inflicted by God to expiate sin, but is the proper restitution rendered to his victim by the civil magistrate. Christians who sin are obligated to make restitution when necessary, but acts of restitution do not contribute to one’s salvation or remit temporal punishments. God often chastises His people, but these chastisements are never spoken of in Scripture as rendering satisfaction for sin. God chastises those He loves not as a vengeful judge, but as a loving Father who is concerned with His children’s sanctification. He is giving medicine, not judicial punishment.77 [/quote]

if you use your sufferings offering them up, as the Bible clearly teaches in fasting and enduring persecutions and all sufferings, [i]1 Corinthians 6:4-6[/i]you are truly blessed, and your reward for that is great in heaven [i]St. Matthew 5:11-12[/i]

[quote]
The Romanist doctrine of justification flows not only from their heretical view of the atonement, but also from their rejection of the biblical concept of imputation. The Romanist doctrine of salvation is a combination of errors found in the church fathers and medieval scholastic theology. Schaff writes: “The fathers lay chief stress on sanctification and good works, and show the already existing terms of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the meritoriousness and even the supererogatory meritoriousness of Christian virtue.”78 Furthermore, in the Western church the Latin translation of the Greek word for justify held a different meaning than the biblical terminology. “The etymology of iustificare, drawn from Roman culture, means to make just, from the root facare.”79 The medieval scholastic theologians who were strongly influenced by Aristotle regarded the idea of imputation as irrational. Thus, Roman Catholicism at Trent completely rejected the Protestant doctrine of an imputed righteousness. Trent, the sixth session, canon 11, says, “If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favor of God: let him be anathema.”80 Imputation and the forensic nature of justification are also rejected in canon 9: “If anyone saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified, in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will: let him be anathema.”81 [/quote]

infusion not imputation is shown in all THESE verses [u][i]Psalm 51:1-2; Psalm 51:7-9; Psalm 51:10; Isaiah 1:18; Isaiah 43:25; Isaiah 44:22; Ezek. 36:26-27; Matt. 5:3,5,8; Matt. 5:6; Lk 6:21; Matt. 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35; Matt. 5:28; Matt. 6:1; Matt. 15:18; Mark 7:15; Matt. 23:25-28; Luke 11:39-40; John 1:29; Acts 3:19; Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11; Rom. 4:3; Rom. 5:17; Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 4:22-24; Phil. 2:13; Titus 3:5; 1 John 1:7,9; 1 John 3:7,10; Rev. 19:8; 2 Peter 1:4; 1 Cor. 3:9 [/i][/u]

[quote]......[/quote]just goes over the same stuff already discussed

[quote]The Roman Catholic doctrine of justification contradicts the Scriptures in several areas. First, the biblical terms used to speak of justification, dikaioo, always means to declare righteous and never means to make righteous (see Lk. 7:29; 10:29; 16:15; Mt. 11:19; Rom. 3:4).[/quote] And in [i]Genesis 1:3[/i] God only declared "Let there be light" it still MADE light, so too would this declaration by God MAKE us righteous by the POWER OF CHRIST
[quote] Justification is a judicial, forensic term and is often contrasted in Scripture with judicial condemnation (see. Dt. 25:1; Pr. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; Job 34:17). Second, when speaking of justification the Bible speaks of the imputation of righteousness and not the infusion of righteousness (see Rom. 4:12, 22-24). Third, the Bible describes justification as something achieved in an instant of time. It is never described as a long process (see Jn. 5:24; Lk. 18:14; 23:43; Rom. 5:1).[/quote] is enduring till the [color=red]END [/color] a long enough process? this legal mumbo jumbo is imposing our narrow views of courts today upon the words of Scipture [quote]Fourth, the Scriptures repeatedly declare that all that a person needs to be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ. “Everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Ac. 13:39; cf. Ac. 16:31; Jn. 3:15-16; 5:24; 11:25-26; Rom. 10:9; 1 Th. 4:14). [/quote]... uh huh... says we must have FAITH in Jesus, not just believe for even the demons in hell do that

[quote]Fifth, the apostle Paul says that God “justifies the ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). This proves that God does not justify people because they are personally righteous but because of the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness.[/quote] or maybe the INFUSION of righteousness? are these ppl ungodly AFTER He justifies them?

[quote] Sixth, God’s word makes a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11). Justification deals with the guilt of sin and the merits needed for eternal life, while sanctification deals with the pollution of sin. Sanctification proves that a person has already been justified but does not contribute one iota to a person’s salvation. [/quote] it makes a distinction, and in fact it says first washed, then SANCTIFIED then JUSTIFIED. are these not all three the same? you are washed of your sin, sanctified, made holy, cleared of your sin, declared just, made just, given a new heart.
[quote]
Seventh, the Bible teaches that the good works of believers are tainted with sin and are non-meritorious (Is. 64:6; Lk. 17:10; Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:15 ff.; Phil. 3:8-9). This side of heaven not one believer is without sin (1 Jn. 1:8). Eighth, the Scriptures say that faith alone is the instrument which appropriates Jesus Christ and His saving work (Rom. 3:22, 25-31; 4:5-25; 5:1, 18; 9:30-32; Gal. 2:16; 3:11-13, 24; 5:1-4).[/quote] Martin Luther ADDED the word "alone"
it is not found in the original text.

so is it [color=red]Sola Scriptura[/color] or [color=blue]Sola Scriptura plus a couple words of clarification from Martin Luther [/color] ?

[quote] After one is justified, the sacraments and other means of grace are used in order to help the believer grow spiritually (i.e., for sanctification not for justification). Ninth, God’s word teaches that Jesus Christ actually accomplished a perfect redemption for His people, the elect (Mt. 1:21; Jn. 10:11-29; Ac. 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27). Romanism erroneously teaches that Christ merely made salvation a possibility if people cooperate with grace. But, as noted, such a view must presuppose that either Christ’s death was insufficient to save or that God is unjust by punishing the same sins twice. Both options are thoroughly unscriptural. [/quote] is Christ's death insufficient to save if we also must partake of those redemptive sufferings? St. Peter thinks not! [i]1 Peter 4:13[/i]


[quote]:BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH SHOING IGNORANCE HERE SPOUTING OFF HATRED TOWARDS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH calling Catholic Hierarchy a tool of satan because i'm afraid to do some mesely Good for Jesus Christ whom i should see  in all people:[/quote]
okay, that was a paraphrase of the last paragraph

[jmjtina]

[quote]:BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH SHOING IGNORANCE HERE SPOUTING OFF HATRED TOWARDS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH calling Catholic Hierarchy a tool of satan because i'm afraid to do some mesely Good for Jesus Christ whom i should see  in all people:


[b]okay, that was a paraphrase of the last paragraph[/b] [/quote]

yeah, that's what I got.......

I don't see what the point of posting the article DG if it disagrees with your original argument. from the article:

[quote]Anyone who adheres to such a gross perversion of the gospel cannot be saved.[/quote]

so this [b]contradicts[/b] [i]your theory [/i] DG. by your theory, we are all saved regardless of what we do or believe in because we are already forgiven.

my question is, why even give an article for us to read ( very anti-catholic by the way) if you yourself disagree with it? Try going to an unbiased resource.....

The article was so poor in taste, and so blantly anti-catholic, it's unbelieveable that so many are ignorant of what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes in. Where's the love? :wub: However, Al made it worth reading...... :pc:

Al, you are awesome. :tiphat:

Peace and God Bless DG.

[Damiano]

*["we are saved by grace through faith..."]

***Correct.

*["...[i]Ephesians 2:8 [/i]faith does not live in us without works. [i]James 2:17[/i] therefore because of our works we keep our faith and thus keep our salvation."]

***You are in error. "It is by grace (i.e., God's unmerited favor) you have been saved"...and adding that the means of this salvation is "through faith." Hence the basis is GRACE and the means is FAITH alone [Romans 3:22, 25;Galatians 2:16;1 Peter 1:5]. Faith is NOT a "work"...it does not merit salvation; it is only the means by which one accepts God's free salvation.

Paul elaborated, "And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." This salvation does NOT have its source in man (it is "not from yourselves"), but rather, its source is God's grace for "it is the GIFT of God."

[Ephesians 2:9] reinforces this by showing that the means is "not by works" since its basis is GRACE [Romans 3:20, 28;4:1-5;11:6;Galatians 2:16;2 Timothy 1:9;Titus 3:5], and its means is FAITH [Romans 4:5]. Therefore since no person can bring salvation to himself by his own efforts, "no man can boast" [Romans 3:27;1 Corinthians 1:29]. Their boasting can only be in the Lord [1 Corinthians 1:31].

Verse [Ephesians 2:10] beginning with "For" tells why this salvation is NOT from man or by his works. The reason is that salvation is "God's workmanship." The word "workmanship" (poiema), is used only here and in {Romans 1:20] and denotes a work of art or a masterpiece. It differs from human "works" (ergon) in [Ephesians 2:9]. Believers are God's workmanship because they have been "created" (a work only God can do) "in Christ Jesus." The purpose of this CREATION is that believers will "do good works." God's workmanship is NOT achieved by good works...but it is to RESULT IN GOOD WORKS [Titus 2:14;3:8].

In the clause, "which God prepared in advance for us to do," the word "which" refers back to the "works" in the previous clause. "For us to do" is literally "in order that we might walk in them." The purpose of these prepared-in-advance work is NOT "to WORK in them" but "to WALK in them." In other words, God has prepared a path of good works for believers which he will perform IN and THROUGH them as they walk by FAITH. This does not mean doing a work for God...instead it is God performing His work IN and THROUGH believers [Philippians 2:13]. This path of good works is discussed by Paul in Ephesians 4-6.

In conclusion, [Ephesians 2:1-10] demonstrates that though people were spiritually dead and deserving only God's wrath...God, in His marvelous grace, has provided salvation through FAITH. Believers are God's workmanship IN whom and THROUGH whom He PERFORMS good works

Damiano.

[Skinzo]

Dairygirl,
I'm wondering why the first option in your poll is actually the question you are asking? I'm also wondering why the majority here have picked that!?

S.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='12 May 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1273668623' post='2109287']
Dairygirl,
I'm wondering why the first option in your poll is actually the question you are asking? I'm also wondering why the majority here have picked that!?

S.
[/quote]

typo i suppose?
i dont remember that occurrence back when this poll was originally made.
i dont know why others voted that option, either. ?
also i would think the poll would not be allowed made without a leading question etc, so i wonder if there's a technical error.

Edited May 12, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c