dairygirl4u2c Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 This is harder that it looks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Are you trying to equate Gods will with that of us folks on earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted March 12, 2004 Author Share Posted March 12, 2004 Yes I am. I am trying to use reason to figure out God's will the best I can though I admit I never will in this life. Is this wrong of me? Is it our weak human nature that compels us to accept sinful children? I am trying to show that God forgives all of us, and even if forgiveness meant being made clean internally, God would still forgive us legally regardless. What do you think causes God to save people? Mercy of course, but who does he bestow his mercy on? To see where I'm getting at read the comments I made in the other father section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 12 2004, 12:50 PM'] Yes I am. I am trying to use reason to figure out God's will the best I can though I admit I never will in this life. Is this wrong of me? Is it our weak human nature that compels us to accept sinful children? I am trying to show that God forgives all of us, and even if forgiveness meant being made clean internally, God would still forgive us legally regardless. What do you think causes God to save people? Mercy of course, but who does he bestow his mercy on? To see where I'm getting at read the comments I made in the other father section. [/quote] Wrong. We must ask for forgiveness to be forgiven. We must be sincere. We must repent. Repent means to change our evil ways. If we do not ask for forgiveness and repent, we will not be forgiven. I really wish you would study the Truth instead of philosophical psychobabble. God Bless. ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 *high five ironmonk* always study the truth we have over psychobabble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 dairygirl, think of the parable of the prodigal son. In this parable the father did not kick his son out of the house, the son demanded some cash, took off and lived like a jerk. This is a much better analogy, courtesy of Jesus Christ. Then when the son came back (admitted his fault and repented in humility) he was reunited to his father who received him with great joy and love. This is more like how God is. The humility, repentance, etc. is more for our benefit. Remember that our guilt keeps us from God. I think you are approaching things in a backwards way. God's mercy and love are not conditional, our receptivity is what is conditional. The unrepentant sinner is like the prodigal son when he was still away from home living it up. We might be at the stage of the son when he was poor and miserable, eating slop. This shows that he was humbled and eventually reached repentence and returned to the father who ran to meet him with open arms. There is a lot more too this parable. Reading it meditatively is better than reading some post. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 [quote]Remember that our guilt keeps us from God. I think you are approaching things in a backwards way. God's mercy and love are not conditional, our receptivity is what is conditional. [/quote] Actually that is what I am trying to say. I am contrasting that with the perception that many Catholics have.. ie that God turns us away when we die because we weren't good enough; most all of you have said that we are only his children when we are good enough therefore you have to be good enough. But many of you speak that you are not saved by works. It's all somewhat convuluted what is taught unoffically. The officialy teachings are vaque enough that I could accept them thought. We are saved by works. But my whole point is that it's not God that casts us off; we cast ourselves off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 we are saved by grace through faith. [i]Ephesians 2:8 [/i] faith does not live in us without works. [i]James 2:17[/i] therefore because of our works we keep our faith and thus keep our salvation. To those who believe in Him, repent [i]Mark 1:15; Matthew 28:20[/i], and are baptized [i]John 3:5[/i], Jesus Christ gave power to become sons of God [i]John 1:12[/i] those who do not are not His children anyway. they are creations of His whom he loves, but they are not sons of God as we are called to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 *BEEP* Ephesians 2:8 doesn't say that - try again. Just finished a .. well, it turned into a 6 month series on Ephesians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Actually yes it does Circle. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8) "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:17) I believe what Al is saying is that our works are evidence of our faith; they keep faith alive and kicking. If you don't do works and let your faith sit and fester you become lukewarm, and we all know what happens to those lukewarm folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted March 16, 2004 Author Share Posted March 16, 2004 (edited) [quote]If you don't do works and let your faith sit and fester you become lukewarm, and we all know what happens to those lukewarm folks. [/quote] That quote is general enough that I don't disagree. We are justified by Jesus regardless of our works or our faith per se. Of course me saying this is my faith but more of an existing beyond the ego type of faith. ie "It's not my faith, it's Jesus" is, in fact, faith. What I disagree with is the notion that we justify ourselves because God's love is conditional. We become children of God by faith (though I would argue that we all are children of God) as you have all shown. So *once children*, are we no longer His children? We must only become true children when we die? But even then, we have to be purged in order to achieve heaven, so according to the CC our salvation is conditional. If the CC taught that works were the necessary product of salvation, I would not disagree, but as it is it teaches that even if you have faith in Jesus, you will still be in hell without works. Cuz I do disagree with saying they works are a necessary factor in salvation. ie faith = salvation + works not faith + works = salvation [quote]****Even when we were dead in sins****, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. *For by grace are ye saved through faith*; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. [/quote] Why doesn't the bible say faith is sustained by works? What James was talking about is that if you don't have works, then your "faith" is dead, mere intellectual assent. Are we zombies? No, we just do works out of gratitude. "which God hath before ordained that we..." and if you don't, your faith is dead. But also when you don't, you faith sustains itself that "while we were still sinners" we know we are saved. I don't interpret this as "even when we were dead in our sins" God made it possible for us to earn our salvation, but "even when we were dead in our sins" God made it possible that I could share in His life strictly as a gift. Here is a letter by brian schwerley about justification and the CC. [color=red][Edited by Ice Princess: to remove anti-Catholic jibberish.][/color] Edited March 16, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Who's Brian Schwertley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 [quote name='Circle_Master' date='Mar 16 2004, 07:11 AM']*BEEP* Ephesians 2:8 doesn't say that - try again. Just finished a .. well, it turned into a 6 month series on Ephesians.[/quote] [i]Ephesians 2:8[/i] doesnt say that, but [i]Ephesians 2:8[/i] in the context of the rest of the scriptures DOES say that anyway, this is the state of my salvation: [b]I have been saved[/b] [i]Isaiah 25:9; Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5, 8; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5[/i] [b]yet i am currently still being saved[/b] [i]1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; Phil. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:9[/i] [b] and i will be saved eternally in the end[/b][i]St. Matthew 10:22; St. Matthew 24:13; St. Mark 13:13; St. John 3:16; Acts 15:11; Romans 5:9-10; Romans 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim 2:11-12; Hebrews 9:28; James 5:15[/i] now i will make a seperate post to deal with "Brian Schwertley" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Don't bother Al, I'm deleting that article. If anyone wants it they can ask Dairy to e-mail it to them. Any piece of garbage that condemns all Catholics to hell in the first paragraph and misrepresents what we teach has no buisness being posted here. Well, you can bother, but I'm still deleting it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 haha, I won't bother debating Ephesians AGAIN with you guys. I think it is crystal clear to me, you think it is crystal clear to you. Oh well I will compliment you guys though They opened a debate forum at my school, and WOW, they are SOOO annoying. Talk about cookie-cutter Jack-Chicks! It's either that or they are universalists who think everyone must be in one world church despite any doctrinal differences! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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