Should We Even Attempt To Save Society?

[tinytherese]

Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, "Give the world the best you've got and it may never be enough. Give the world the best you've got anyway...

so in the end its between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway."

[Socrates]

[quote name='peregrinus_WA' post='1698048' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:40 PM']From my [url="http://peregrinus.stblogs.com/"]blog[/url]:

This is only the latest in my rants on society.[/quote]
With all due respect, your title question, "should we even attempt to save society?" is absurd.

As Christians, of course we should attempt to save society!
Not that saving "society," as some sociological abstraction, should be our ultimate goal, but our goal on this earth as Christians is, as has been pointed out by others here, saving souls.
If we are successful in saving souls for Christ, then society itself will by necessity likewise be redeemed for Christ.
Indeed, we are all called as Catholics to "[i]Instaurare omnia in Christo[/i]" - "to restore all things in Christ."

It's not clear exactly what you mean here by "saving society." "Society" is in reality composed of individual human beings living together on earth. Man is a social creature, and by nature lives in society. Unless you truly live your entire life alone in a cave, you too are part of "society" - whether you like it or not.

If we as Christians are really living our mission to bring souls to Christ, this will have the effect of converting society to Christ. You can't save souls without having effect on society, and we can't save society without saving souls.

As the Gospels and countless encyclicals should make clear, Christians should work to make all areas of life more Christian - to by a light to the nations, a shining city on a hill.

Christ's original Apostles certainly seemed to face an uphill battle - Most of the world followed various forms of paganism, mostly greatly at odds with Christian belief and morality. Most of the western world was ruled by the pagan and oppressive Roman Empire, which would soon begin a vicious persecution of Christians. The religious leaders of the Jews had rejected the Christ and put Him to death, and were bent on persecuting His followers.

The problem isn't that "society" today is less redeemable, but maybe that modern Christians are less zealous and more defeatist - in other words, have less Faith.

And your statement about "letting the Roman Empire implode" really is not accurate. Though persecuted, Christians gradually were able Christianize and convert pagan Roman Society, culminating in the empire itself becoming officially Christian. The pagan elements of Roman society would bring about their own demise, but it is not truthful to talk as though early Christians simply abandoned society to let it "implode."

Many "conservative Catholics" (myself included) need to spend less time in defeatist wailing and whining, and more time restoring all things in Christ.

[kafka]

[quote name='peregrinus_WA' post='1698057' date='Nov 8 2008, 10:56 PM']What I am saying is a general question since society is on the verge (if not already) implosion from the perversions that are so rampant. Should we attempt to redeem society or should we let it implode (like the Roman Empire) and rebuild under a true Catholic framework.[/quote]
Sorry if I sound a bit heavy, but to make an honest assessment with lack of false hope can be overwhelming.

I like your honest reflections. In my opinion if any man make an honest assessment of the state of the Church and the world today as compared to all of history, he would come to the conclusion that we are living in unique times. There is no questioning the mass scale of serious sins committed, the lack of simplicity in the hearts and minds of men, the lack of worship of God in public and private life, general moral decay, and disorder in the family and society. Where I think you go a bit wrong is melting it down to ideologies. The ideologies such as relatavism, globalization, etc. are a result of a much deeper problem, namely serious sins committed on a mass scale. Like I said to make an honest assessment with lack of false hope can be overwhelming.

At this point there is nothing we humans can do to fix things. God will get involved in some stupendous ways. The Holy Spirit is hard at work in the Church & world. The times we live in are part of a larger, more sublime plan than any person(s) could contrive. Eventually, God will establish His kingdom on earth as is prayed for in the Our Father. What we need to do is find our place or our so called destiny and cooperate with God's plan, however active or non-active it may be.
[quote name='Era Might' post='1698096' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:40 PM']Every generation goes through its own crises. Imagine if you lived through Nazism. It would have been hard to believe that the world would be standing very long. But here we are today, and Nazism is long dead.[/quote]
True each generation must face something, but the crisis in the Church and the world today is unprecedented.

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1698226' date='Nov 9 2008, 12:32 PM']Stop trying to worm your way out of the hopelessness of western civilisation by finding excuses to ignore it with spirituality, its your duty as a Catholic citizen of your respective nation to apply the Teachings of Christ to your everyday life and encourage others to do so. This world means nothing, or course it doesn't, what you do, how you react, and how hard you try to do the right thing even if tis above and beyond you does.[/quote]
I dont think he is trying to worm his way out of anything. There is nothing wrong with spirituality, not everyone is called to an active life.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1698608' date='Nov 9 2008, 09:18 PM']With all due respect, your title question, "should we even attempt to save society?" is absurd.

It's not clear exactly what you mean here by "saving society." "Society" is in reality composed of individual human beings living together on earth. Man is a social creature, and by nature lives in society. Unless you truly live your entire life alone in a cave, you too are part of "society" - whether you like it or not.


The problem isn't that "society" today is less redeemable, but maybe that modern Christians are less zealous and more defeatist - in other words, have less Faith.[/quote]
The title of his blog was not absurd. You were absurd for thinking it absurd. Whether he knew it or not it is a rhetorical question.

It is clear what he means by saving society.

The problems of the Church and the world today go much deeper than lack of zeal on the part of modern Christians.

Edited November 10, 2008 by kafka

[peregrinus_WA]

[quote name='kafka' post='1698989' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:52 PM']I like your honest reflections. In my opinion if any man make an honest assessment of the state of the Church and the world today as compared to all of history, he would come to the conclusion that we are living in unique times.[/quote]I see the Church, as a whole, as not part of the implosion and I actually see them in the same role as with the collapse of Rome. Yes, there are parts that will die and whither, but that group (i.e CTA, VOTF and the like) is already nearing extinction.

[LouisvilleFan]

Thank God the Great Commission is optional.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' post='1698989' date='Nov 10 2008, 02:52 PM']True each generation must face something, but the crisis in the Church and the world today is unprecedented.[/quote]
Here is something written by St. Luigi Orione in 1936:

[quote]We are the Sons of Divine Providence, and we shall not despair, but instead, we shall put our trust unreservedly in God! We are not among those prophets of doom who believe the world will end tommorow. Corruption and moral evil are great, it is true; but I firmly believe that the ultimate victor will be God, and God shall win with His infinite mercy.

God has always won in this way! We shall have "novos coelos et novam terram." Society, restored in Christ, will reappear on the horizon, more brilliant. It will reappear reinvigorated, renewed, and firmly guided by the Church. Catholicism, replete with divine truth, charity, new youth, and supernatural strength, will rise in the world, and place itself at the head of the reanimated era leading us to a restoration of faith, civilization, happiness, and salvation.

A great epoch is about to begin! This will be due to the benevolent mercy of Jesus Christ, Our Lord and the heavenly maternal intercession of Mary Most Holy. I envision a resplendent monument, not based in sand, rising as a luminous column of love and founded upon revealed charity, upon the Church, upon the only rock, eternal, unshaken: "petra autem erat Christus."

...

Courage then, my dear ones: Let us cast ourselves among the children of the people. Let us draw the young generation to ways of the good. Let us demonstrate, especially with our Festive Oratories, how the Church is fertile with moral force, beneficial religious influence, and a redemption force, always a lively source of that charity which Jesus Christ came to bring upon the earth. May all our lives be irradiated by a great love of God and love of neighbor, especially for the poorest of the poor and the most abandoned of youth; and God will be with us always![/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1698989' date='Nov 10 2008, 12:52 PM']True each generation must face something, but the crisis in the Church and the world today is unprecedented.[/quote]
The present situation is a defining moment for humanity, and one which is even more important than that faced by the world in the 1930s, because the attacks upon innocent human life are being made in the name of a liberty that is devoid of any connection to the divine and natural law. Sadly, over the past three decades 49 million innocent human beings have been murdered in America alone through the crime of abortion, and the recent elections open up new possibilities for an increase in this blood bath by killing those who are the weakest of the weak (i.e., the unborn, the infirm, and those who suffer in any way) in the name of a godless ideology promoted euphemistically as "choice." In the face of this new fascism the Church, and all men of good will, must resist the evil that is being promoted today by unequivocally reaffirming the right to life of every innocent human being.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1699536' date='Nov 11 2008, 02:01 PM']Sadly, over the past three decades 49 million innocent human beings have been murdered in America alone through the crime of abortion, and the recent elections open up new possibilities for an increase in this blood bath by killing those who are the weakest of the weak (i.e., the unborn, the infirm, and those who suffer in any way) in the name of a godless ideology promoted euphemistically as "choice."[/quote]

The problem with quoting this statistic is that about 1.2 million abortions were performed underground every year in America [i]before[/i] Roe v. Wade. The problems we are facing now started generations before Roe v. Wade, especially during the 19th century when women were objectified specifically [i]for[/i] their childbearing capability. Today we look back romantically at the days when married couples usually bore many children, but we have to look under the surface to realize that Margaret Sanger was rebelling against very real sin in her day. Of course, she didn't provide a better solution, but without the grace to see the truth, this is what the world falls for.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1699550' date='Nov 11 2008, 11:17 AM']The problem with quoting this statistic is that about 1.2 million abortions were performed underground every year in America [i]before[/i] Roe v. Wade. The problems we are facing now started generations before Roe v. Wade, especially during the 19th century when women were objectified specifically [i]for[/i] their childbearing capability. Today we look back romantically at the days when married couples usually bore many children, but we have to look under the surface to realize that Margaret Sanger was rebelling against very real sin in her day. Of course, she didn't provide a better solution, but without the grace to see the truth, this is what the world falls for.[/quote]
The number of abortions throughout the 1960s is higher than that of all the previous decades of the 20th century combined, and reflects the ongoing erosion of morality promoted by the "sexual liberation" movement. Regardless, the laws of our land must -- by definition -- reflect the divine and natural law or they are not true laws, but are abuses of conscience. A reform of our society must be initiated and soon or murder on an even greater scale will be the result. Mark my words, we are in a situation that is worse than the evils promoted by the Nazis, and consciences have been so dulled by a false notion of liberty that the murder of the innocent is not only ignored, but is seen as a "right."

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1699520' date='Nov 11 2008, 12:46 PM']Here is something written by St. Luigi Orione in 1936:[/quote]
thanks for the quote.

Sometimes, I do tend to be gloomy, but I know well the world will not end tommorrow or anytime soon. And Saint Luigi is right, there will be a time when the Church will in a metaphorical way relive the Transfiguration. There will be a brief era of unprecedented peace and holiness for the Church, along with some of the greatest Saints ever to live.

Honestly, in spite of all the serious sins committed in the world today (not limited to abortion) and the disorder, I've never been so hopeful, since I know God will begin to get involved in the world in some intense ways. In my mind there is no question, it is just a matter of time.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kafka' post='1698989' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:52 PM']Sorry if I sound a bit heavy, but to make an honest assessment with lack of false hope can be overwhelming.

I like your honest reflections. In my opinion if any man make an honest assessment of the state of the Church and the world today as compared to all of history, he would come to the conclusion that we are living in unique times. There is no questioning the mass scale of serious sins committed, the lack of simplicity in the hearts and minds of men, the lack of worship of God in public and private life, general moral decay, and disorder in the family and society. Where I think you go a bit wrong is melting it down to ideologies. The ideologies such as relatavism, globalization, etc. are a result of a much deeper problem, namely serious sins committed on a mass scale. Like I said to make an honest assessment with lack of false hope can be overwhelming.

At this point there is nothing we humans can do to fix things. God will get involved in some stupendous ways. The Holy Spirit is hard at work in the Church & world. The times we live in are part of a larger, more sublime plan than any person(s) could contrive. Eventually, God will establish His kingdom on earth as is prayed for in the Our Father. What we need to do is find our place or our so called destiny and cooperate with God's plan, however active or non-active it may be.[/quote]
We humans could never "fix things" without God. However, God works through human beings, and it is our duty to do our best to follow His will - which includes evangelizing society, and working to restore all things in Christ. We should not be passive.


[quote]True each generation must face something, but the crisis in the Church and the world today is unprecedented.[/quote]
I'm not sure. If you study your Church history, there were some very dark times.


[quote]The title of his blog was not absurd. You were absurd for thinking it absurd. Whether he knew it or not it is a rhetorical question.

It is clear what he means by saving society.

The problems of the Church and the world today go much deeper than lack of zeal on the part of modern Christians.[/quote]
Rhetorical or not, it is wrong to say that we should not even attempt to save society.

I was pointing out the absurdity of trying to separate "society" from the actual human beings who make up society.
It's easy to condemn "society" as some impersonal faceless force, somehow separate from human beings and their actions. (And I get sick of how in modern times, "society" tends to get blamed for all evils, while individual persons are absolved of all responsibility for their actions.)
If we say society is not worth saving, this implies that human beings are not worth saving.

(Or, worse yet, we can get caught in the neo-Calvinist mindset of thinking of "society" as all those awful wicked people out there in the world who are not even worth trying to save, as opposed to holy people like us outside "society" who actually deserve redemption. Such a [largely subconscious] attitude is a danger to various "conservative Christian" groups.)

To say that Christians should abandon society, and just "allow it to implode" is contrary to Christ's commission to go out and make disciples of all nations, as well as to the Catholic exhortation to restore all things in Christ.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Socrates

[kafka]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1699910' date='Nov 11 2008, 10:35 PM']We humans could never "fix things" without God. However, God works through human beings, and it is our duty to do our best to follow His will - which includes evangelizing society, and working to restore all things in Christ. We should not be passive.

I'm not sure. If you study your Church history, there were some very dark times.

Rhetorical or not, it is wrong to say that we should not even attempt to save society.

I was pointing out the absurdity of trying to separate "society" from the actual human beings who make up society.
It's easy to condemn "society" as some impersonal faceless force, somehow separate from human beings and their actions. (And I get sick of how in modern times, "society" tends to get blamed for all evils, while individual persons are absolved of all responsibility for their actions.)
If we say society is not worth saving, this implies that human beings are not worth saving.

(Or, worse yet, we can get caught in the neo-Calvinist mindset of thinking of "society" as all those awful wicked people out there in the world who are not even worth trying to save, as opposed to holy people like us outside "society" who actually deserve redemption. Such a [largely subconscious] attitude is a danger to various "conservative Christian" groups.)

To say that Christians should abandon society, and just "allow it to implode" is contrary to Christ's commission to go out and make disciples of all nations, as well as to the Catholic exhortation to restore all things in Christ.[/quote]
Thanks for clarifying your points above.

I like your point on how men cooperate with God to accomplish his will on earth.

As far as being active or passive in society that is sort of an open statement. Not everyone is called to pubicly evangelize, for example the duty of a father and mother according to God's will for them might be to privately evangelize and raise their children, so that they may become evangelizers in a more public way. Or some people might be called to a more passive life of prayer and sacrifice winning conversions in the world of people they've never met.

I guess I was just arguing for a more balanced point of view. In my view change in society starts at the most fundamental level, namely the repentance, conversion, and holiness of the individual. If one takes it upon himself to do a great deal in evangelizing society, yet it is not God's will for him, he would have done less than more.

Yes, I have studied Church history, and world history in general. In my opinon (as I stated above) we are living in the worst of times, unprecendented in history. Its an honest reflection over years of meditation and study of Church teaching, Sacred Scripture, the sciences, and the current state of the world.

Good points, glad to debate.