Joint Declaration On Doctrine Of Justification

[cmotherofpirl]

VATICAN CITY, MARCH 10, 2004 (Zenit.org).- A pontifical council and the Lutheran World Federation have urged celebrations -- and more work -- to mark the fifth anniversary of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

Representatives of the Lutheran federation and Catholic Church jointly signed the declaration Oct. 31, 1999, in Germany, officially stating that there is consensus between Lutherans and Catholics on basic truths related to the doctrine of justification.

"It is our heartfelt view that the fifth anniversary of the declaration signing calls for celebrations and for renewed study around the world," write the Reverend Ishmael Noko, general secretary of the Lutheran federation, and Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, in a joint letter.

A key phrase of the document, in paragraph No. 15, states: "Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

Yet, Noko and Cardinal Kasper point out that substantial work remains to be done before full agreement could be reached on the significance of justification.
ZE04031001

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]"Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."[/quote]

That's a little misleading isn't it?

Cuz, true, in the CC it is ultimately the grace of God that saves you, but isn't it also true according to CC teaching that you have to turn away from sin in order to be justified and forgiven ie to recieve this final grace?

Well, in the protestant churches "accepted" by God means that they will always have the capacity to be with God.

What does it mean to be "accepted" by God in the CC? Wouldn't it mean that you have the capacity to have to earn the capacity to be with God?

Edited March 11, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Gray Eminence]

[i]Laudetur Jesus Christus.[/i]

dairygirl4u2c,

No.
Yes, but grace is at work there too.
Substantially, very much the same thing as in the rest of Christianity.
No, not in the precise way your question is worded.

[b]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b]
Phillipians 2:12-13

[Guest catholic-for-christ]

What was the point of this silly document? And what is there to celebrate? Official Church teaching is neither disproven nor authenticated by signing documents with Lutherans. I am not against interfaith dialogue -- I am against jeopardizing distinctively Catholic teaching by stating it in such vague terms that, at a first glance, one would assume the present Church is contradicting past Church teaching. THAT is what I am against, totally.

Pax Frateri

[dUSt]

Well, it's a document stating the points that we agree on. Since we don't agree on all the points, we left those out of the document. It's a start. First agree on the things we do agree on, and then work from there. I see no problem with it.

Just like if I was talking toi a Protestant friend--we'd start out by saying that we both love Christ, and then work from there.

[Laudate_Dominum]

edited away because I'm too tired to be engaging in discussion...

Edited March 12, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='catholic-for-christ' date='Mar 12 2004, 02:47 AM'] What was the point of this silly document? And what is there to celebrate? Official Church teaching is neither disproven nor authenticated by signing documents with Lutherans. I am not against interfaith dialogue -- I am against jeopardizing distinctively Catholic teaching by stating it in such vague terms that, at a first glance, one would assume the present Church is contradicting past Church teaching. THAT is what I am against, totally.

Pax Frateri [/quote]
The document has nothing silly about it.
Catholics are always accused of earning salvation by works.
We don't, and the Lutherans finally "get it".
It is one step closer to Lutherans rejoining the fold.
That is something to celebrate.

[DojoGrant]

The big problem with this document is that most Lutherans do not accept it. It was signed by the Lutheran World Federation, which is considered by (at least) most American Luterhan bodies to be heretical. The LCMS, the largest Lutheran body in the world (if I'm not mistaken) totally rejects the document. I would imagine the Wisconsin Synod also rejects it.

In other words, reunion is still a long ways off.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Mar 12 2004, 11:07 AM'] In other words, reunion is still a long ways off. [/quote]
Hehe, no kidding. I'll be impressed when the joint declarations on "Transubstantiation", "Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix & Advocate", and the one on "no salvation without submission to the Roman Pontiff" come out.

[Gray Eminence]

[i]Laudetur Jesus Christus.[/i]

Baby steps [i]do [/i]have [i]some [/i]value. Besides, we can pray that with each of these steps Catholics gain a deeper understanding of the Faith and individual Protestants realize it's time to come home to Mother.

[i]Debemus autem nos fir miores imbecillitates infir morum sustinere et non nobis placere. [/i]
[b]We who are strong ought to put up with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves;[/b]
Romans 15:1

[FlipFlopHead]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Mar 12 2004, 11:07 AM'] The big problem with this document is that most Lutherans do not accept it. It was signed by the Lutheran World Federation, which is considered by (at least) most American Luterhan bodies to be heretical. The LCMS, the largest Lutheran body in the world (if I'm not mistaken) totally rejects the document. I would imagine the Wisconsin Synod also rejects it. [/quote]
You're right that the LCMS and WELS (to my knowledge) reject the document but neither are a part of the Lutheran World Federation. The LCMS is not the largest body of Lutherans in the world, in fact they are only have the size of the Evangelicl Lutheran Church in America (which is a part of the Federation). Most major Lutheran church bodies are a part of the federation, such as the state churches in Scandinavia, etc.

I think there is great reason to celebrate this document, because a lot of the disputes over justification in the 16th century arose from gross misunderstandings and differences of emphasis. The Joint Declaration, in my mind, did a great deal to clear the air on some of those issues even showing how "faith alone" (when properly understood as being tied to hope and charity) justifies a believer.

[Aloysius]

i think this was a great victory over Martin Luther, who would have not aggreed with this document i'm pretty sure.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Luther would agree with this state ment because it is so vaque like that dude said.

[quote]The document has nothing silly about it.
Catholics are always accused of earning salvation by works.
[/quote]

Isn't that what the CC teaches though? Even if it's the grace of God that compels you to do the works as the CC teaches, it's still your cooperation with the works that justifies you and allows you to be forgiven. So while on a vaque term they'd agree with this, many protestants would still not agree with the CC in full bc they see it's teaching as a subtle yet nearly complete rejection of the true gosple.

I'm not saying who's right or wrong, it all depends on context, I"m just saying that's what's believed.

Is this a wrong assesment?

[Aloysius]

no, ML wouldn't have aggreed with the whole document in my opinion. that statement was just a part of the document.'

[Guest catholic-for-christ]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Mar 12 2004, 07:31 AM'] Well, it's a document stating the points that we agree on. Since we don't agree on all the points, we left those out of the document. It's a start. First agree on the things we do agree on, and then work from there. I see no problem with it.

Just like if I was talking toi a Protestant friend--we'd start out by saying that we both love Christ, and then work from there. [/quote]
As if pen and paper were needed to prove that Catholics and Lutherans actually agree on something...

It's interesting to know that this is the very same issue that started the Protestant reformation, what a past Pontiff called "a rebellion against God."

Pax Frateri