TotusTuusMaria Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Earlier this evening I spoke on the phone with a mother prioress from a Carmel I had been told I should look into by a good priest. I asked which Constitution they follow. That is important to me. I asked, "Do you follow the 1990 or 1991 Constitution?" She said they followed the 1992 Constitution. I heard her very well. She went on to describe to me how the 1992 Constitution allowed them to be under the friars, as St. Teresa had wanted and how many of the Spanish Carmels who broke away and followed the _____ were not returning to the 1992 and so on. So, what should I think about this? Obviously she meant the 1991 (I guess), but how could a mother prioress be confused on that? Good priest recommended them. She did sound elderly. I was told she was very wise. It seems like a very nice and traditional Carmel. However that was weird. And she is calling me again tomorrow night. How do you tell someone you don't think God is calling you there when you really don't know them too well or even when you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 They're only going to be regular people. I'm not sure if I would make a judgement based on one phone call. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudem Gloriae Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Can you tell us which Carmel this was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1696307' date='Nov 7 2008, 01:12 AM']Earlier this evening I spoke on the phone with a mother prioress from a Carmel I had been told I should look into by a good priest. I asked which Constitution they follow. That is important to me. I asked, "Do you follow the 1990 or 1991 Constitution?" She said they followed the 1992 Constitution. I heard her very well. She went on to describe to me how the 1992 Constitution allowed them to be under the friars, as St. Teresa had wanted and how many of the Spanish Carmels who broke away and followed the _____ were not returning to the 1992 and so on. So, what should I think about this? Obviously she meant the 1991 (I guess), but how could a mother prioress be confused on that? Good priest recommended them. She did sound elderly. I was told she was very wise. It seems like a very nice and traditional Carmel. However that was weird. And she is calling me again tomorrow night. How do you tell someone you don't think God is calling you there when you really don't know them too well or even when you do.[/quote] Get clarification on that. Tell her that you've heard of the 1990 and 1991 Constitutions, but never the 1992 ones, and that you'd like to learn more. It does make sense that there would be 1992 Constitutions like what you've described, but this is the first I've heard of it. Waiting for Margaret Clare to weigh in on this. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linnie Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 [url="http://www.geocities.com/carmelite_2000/kuenstle.html"]http://www.geocities.com/carmelite_2000/kuenstle.html[/url] this might clarify things a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 [quote name='linnie' post='1696694' date='Nov 7 2008, 11:33 AM'][url="http://www.geocities.com/carmelite_2000/kuenstle.html"]http://www.geocities.com/carmelite_2000/kuenstle.html[/url] this might clarify things a bit[/quote] I've read this article before, but after reading it again I don't see how there can be a 1992. It says: [quote]Some of the monasteries on the list of 92 who asked for the text did not see the 1990 Constitutions before it was promulgated. After the fact, some of them expressed surprise and concern about the change made in it regarding the Teresian position of the superior general. Four monasteries chose the 1990 Constitutions while obtaining from the Holy See the faculty to follow the 1991 Constitutions in all points that referred to the superior general. These monasteries are San Simone Di Sannicola, Italy, and Krakow, Lodz and Wloclawek-Michelin, Poland. [b]More monasteries attempted to do this but the Holy See did not want a third official text for the nuns[/b].[/quote] Everytime I read this I get a bad taste in my mouth; as if this article is very bias and leaving out bits of truth. Like when they say, [b]"The principal players in this resistance were Madre Maravillas' sub prioress[/b], the prioresses of the monasteries of el Cerro and Aravaca and the San Diego nuns, the in-house architect and the prioresses at el Escorial and the Incarnation. They were advised by some Opus Dei members, some friars of the Ancient Order and some Jesuits. Their resistance was supported by powerful voices in Rome. The Nuncio of the Holy See in Spain at that time, Mario Tagliaferti, and the Prefect of Opus Dei, Alvero del Portillo, were among them. The text developed from the criteria of the Casaroli letter, the Draft Legislation of 1986, was written by six OCD friars: Jesus Castellano, Arnaldo Pignam, Valentino Mecca, Eugenio Gurratxoga Aramburi, Pietro Zubicta and Michelangelo Baitz." They forget to mentioned she is St. Madre Maravillas. The article was written in 1997, when she was a Venerable, but they don't even mention that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 [quote name='Gemma' post='1696584' date='Nov 7 2008, 07:10 AM']Get clarification on that. Tell her that you've heard of the 1990 and 1991 Constitutions, but never the 1992 ones, and that you'd like to learn more. It does make sense that there would be 1992 Constitutions like what you've described, but this is the first I've heard of it. Waiting for Margaret Clare to weigh in on this. Blessings, Gemma[/quote] I'll ask Mother tonight that. I will email Margaret Clare too. I think she doesn't get on here that often. If she emails me back I'll post it or just direct her to answer here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1696752' date='Nov 7 2008, 01:55 PM']I've read this article before, but after reading it again I don't see how there can be a 1992. It says: Everytime I read this I get a bad taste in my mouth; as if this article is very bias and leaving out bits of truth. Like when they say, [b]"The principal players in this resistance were Madre Maravillas' sub prioress[/b], the prioresses of the monasteries of el Cerro and Aravaca and the San Diego nuns, the in-house architect and the prioresses at el Escorial and the Incarnation. They were advised by some Opus Dei members, some friars of the Ancient Order and some Jesuits. Their resistance was supported by powerful voices in Rome. The Nuncio of the Holy See in Spain at that time, Mario Tagliaferti, and the Prefect of Opus Dei, Alvero del Portillo, were among them. The text developed from the criteria of the Casaroli letter, the Draft Legislation of 1986, was written by six OCD friars: Jesus Castellano, Arnaldo Pignam, Valentino Mecca, Eugenio Gurratxoga Aramburi, Pietro Zubicta and Michelangelo Baitz." They forget to mentioned she is St. Madre Maravillas. The article was written in 1997, when she was a Venerable, but they don't even mention that either.[/quote] Truly sad article. Very biased. I never recommend it. One 1991 prioress I know told me that Rome wrote the 1991 constitutions, not the nuns. That's why it has such a "formal" taste about it. St. Maravillas, pray for this, please! Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradMom Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 +Praised be Jesus Christ! I sent you a PM with more detailed information, but honestly, in all of the looking with my daughter(s) did, we never came across a 1992 Carmel. I am wondering if the Prioress was just confused....? I didn't put this in the PM but it was my experience helping with discernment that so many of the Nuns were absolutely shocked at the depth of knowledge young women have about religious life and individual communities. Many of the Nuns didn't even know what a constitution was when they entered! (Of course different times and not so much to be wary of....) Some of the Prioresses we talked with were very unprepared to answer direct questions - and some even took the "more will be revealed" approach when very specific questions were asked. Also, in their defense, many of the Prioresses are older, dealing with older members, failing vocations, trying to make decisions and in many ways, very unprepared for what God has given them in the way of responsibilities. Their novitiate was a long time ago and for many of them, they have just integrated the constitutions and specifics into their very being, not really giving it that much thought on a daily basis. (This doesn't really apply to the cloistered communities that attend federation/association meetings, or the ones that use the internet on a regular basis.) I hope this helps, but I suspect that your Mother Prioress will have more information tonight when you speak to her. Also, just to make sure - you are talking with an OCD Monastery and not an O.Carm., right? I hope this helps, good luck and God bless! PM me for more information or clarification.... In His Holy Face, TradMom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudem Gloriae Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I wonder if back in the day when all Carmels were full habited, traditions, observed their traditions, enclosure and charism, enclosure, etc. and when there was practically no difference between Carmels like this that women didn't need to know or never thought of it! Now you HAVE to find out as an order can look great and traditional by website and you show up and they are clearly not! They won't state in their website that they are loose or lax or liberal and break enclosure, etc. And if they don't update their site, you may be in for a shock if you go for a visit and see some in the full trad habit, the rest in varying degrees of modified habits like a fashion show - a bad one at that! That almost happened to me! But I found this out BEFORE I went on a vist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 (edited) - Edited November 7, 2008 by Saint Therese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradMom Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 +Praised be Jesus Christ! Laudem, Unfortunately, your story is only too familiar. While websites are great tools, some communities don't update them, and then, also, if one is looking for a "real" cloistered life they can be quite surprised (if they don't check the website) that the nuns are all over the internet, breaking enclosure in that way (not to mention other activities). That is fine, naturally, if you are comfortable with that and you want that, but if you don't it can be a huge and not very happy surprise. I commend all women who are careful in correspondence and research. One can never ask enough questions. Many communities just say, "Come and see," but this can be very expensive in the beginning stages of a vocational search (in the event you are not sure which order!) and of course, in later stages, as the visits become longer and more intense, more expense if the Monastery is not close. You were very funny in your description of the fashion show. Yes, we have seen that, too! TradMom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradMom Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 +Praised be Jesus Christ! Dear St. Therese, As Sister Praxedes said in another post on another thread really well, there is something for everyone in our Church. Knowing what you want and what you don't want in religious life is a good start and a huge help in discernment. Laudem has been very open, very clear and very direct in her search for a community and she has mentioned consistently that she wants a full habit. Her comment was not a criticism but an observation. Some discerners will be very happy with a community that does not have a unified habit/mode of dress and would care less about the nuns are wearing. We are all different and it is again why I encourage all discerners to ask questions - the more one sees and learns about the religious life, and the more likes/dislikes are revealed to the individual - the better equipped one is to make the right decision to enter a community that will end up being a good match, and hopefully the vocation will survive all the other challenges that religious life brings. Perhaps you weren't talking about Laudem, but this phorum allows us all to discuss things openly and with respect. We will not always agree, but we have the privilege of open conversation. In this way, we learn from one another. We also understand that first and foremost, religious are humans and are not exempt from errors, frailities or any other human condition - including, yes - holiness. God bless you, TradMom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudem Gloriae Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 The sad thing is that there even some communities who don't like a lot of questions asked! This happened recently with me and a Carmel I was writing. The first few emails were great, the Mother was nice, open friendly and asked me to come and visit. So I thought I might but I needed to find somethings out before I did so. I asked a few questions going by what I saw on their website and things that weren't addressed in their website and I did ask VERY nice. So the next thing I know, I'm getting an email with "your are not right for us, etc."! I asked about their horarium that they mailed me. They had 3-4 Divine Office hours being said privately by the sisters so I asked about that. One email had mentioned how they were so busy with their income work, so I was wondering do they say these offices privately because the sisters can speed thru them so they can get back to work or are they said beautifully, solemnly in the hermitages they have? They had a sister playing guitar while the sisters are in choir saying the office - so I asked what this was - folksey music or what? And then some others. I am NOT about to spend all that money flying there and back and any other expenses to find out they put work before prayer, they play Bob Dylan or jazzy type music for choir, etc.! I asked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosaMystica Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 If I'm called to enter Carmel one day I know EXACTLY which Carmel I would enter: Carmel of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in Valparaiso, NE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now