How Hateful People Can Get When They Hear The Truth ...

[filiusInFilio]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1692945' date='Nov 4 2008, 11:20 AM']99%of my friends facebook status' is "McCain Palin 2008 Get out the Vote!" lol...
I guess thats what happens when you go to Franciscan.[/quote]
word

same at Ave

[missionseeker]

[quote name='filiusInFilio' post='1692956' date='Nov 4 2008, 12:20 PM']word

same at Ave[/quote]


Mine is "voted. And paid quite a sum to do so, too. So leave her alone about it, ok?"




I am just tired of politics.

(And, I had to overnight two envelopes one time it was $25 and the other it was $16 :/ so I have done my civic duty and my mother called and said they did get your ballot. Your name is crossed off the list. So I know for sure. lol. )

[missionseeker]

Oh and, same at Southern Catholic.

[Seven77]

i agree with you Dave but personally I think the same point can be driven home kind of differently.

If you or anyone knows anybody that has not voted yet, please e-mail me asap and I can send you my little attempt at a mass e-mail that may help.

[Seven77]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1692964' date='Nov 4 2008, 12:33 PM']i agree with you Dave but personally I think the same point can be driven home kind of differently.

If you or anyone knows anybody that has not voted yet, please e-mail me asap and I can send you my little attempt at a mass e-mail that may help.[/quote]

[Dave]

[quote name='Barbarus' post='1692877' date='Nov 4 2008, 08:30 AM']Don't get me wrong, I'm going to be voting for McCain in 45 minutes myself. And I am personally of the opinion that there is not proportionate reason to vote for Obama. However, I don't elevate my opinion to the status of righteousness, and I believe it is possible for a faithful Catholic to look at the entirety of the situation and come to a different conclusion.[/quote]

I'm glad you know there's no proportionate reason to vote for Obama. But you believe it because you know it's true. Either there is a proportionate reason to vote for Obama, or there isn't. It's not a matter of opinion, where neither side is right or wrong.

[quote]Besides, in your opening post you said it was objectively sinful for someone to vote for a pro-choice candidate, and that's how I responded -- that it is not objectively sinful to vote for a pro-choice candidate. There are circumstances under which one could be morally right in such a vote. It is possible, in my opinion, for one to come to such a conclusion in the current election.[/quote]

I agree that it's possible to vote for a pro-abortion candidate and not commit sin, objectively speaking, but again, there has to be proportionate reason for doing so. You believe there's no proportionate reason to vote for Obama, and you're correct, but it's not just your opinion; it's a FACT.

[quote]I also wasn't aware that there were "objective mortal sins." I was under the impression that for a sin to be mortal it had to be grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and deliberate consent. I've seen debates on here at several points about whether certain activities are or are not mortally sinful, and it always comes down to these three criteria. I'm reasonably certain that still applies here, so therefore you can't say that voting for Obama is objectively mortally sinful.[/quote]

Any mortal sin has to involve grave matter. That in and of itself makes an action or omission an objectively mortal sin. But subjectively, we can't know a person's culpability. If the other conditions aren't present, then there's no mortal sin committed. It doesn't make said action or omission any less wrong, though. At any rate, that's why I used the word "objective" -- maybe the other 2 conditions for mortal sin aren't present. But it doesn't make it any less wrong.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Dave' post='1692815' date='Nov 4 2008, 01:38 AM']One of my Facebook friends, a fellow Catholic, had made it clear on her page that she intends to vote for Obama. This is a practicing Catholic girl who works with LifeTeen at her parish. So I sent her a message. I said, "One cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate such as Obama without objectively committing a mortal sin. I urge you to reconsider." That's all I said -- nothing more, nothing less.

She responded by removing me from her friend list and sent me a message entitled "let me alone." This girl said it wasn't my place to tell her how to vote. Then she had the gall to say, "Mortal sin? So is masturbation."

She concluded by threatening to contact Facebook if it continued.

To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men: Some people can't handle the truth![/quote]

Well, in this example, I don't think it's so much that she couldn't handle the truth as she couldn't handle you. You obviously let her get to you, so it looks to me like you both lost.

Friend of mine was dealing with this same situation over facebook. He had a "Catholics for Obama" logo for image and one of my very orthodox seminarian friends messaged him about it. The two of them are not friends and never had contact with each other before this incident. It didn't go over well at all. The interesting thing is, while I'm just as orthodox as my friend who called him out, I'm also friends with the liberal guy. Granted, I haven't succeeded at influencing his view, but I don't make a secret of my position either. I don't know if either of us are doing the right thing, but I feel like when it's possible to retain a friendship [i]while maintaining a faithful witness to the truth[/i], then we should strive for that goal.

I italicized that part to emphasize that I'm not talking about keeping a friendship at all costs, and hopefully avoid the inevitable reply from someone who misread my words.

Anytime we are faced with reconciling a disagreement, especially one that carries with it highly-charged emotions, if we truly care about them and the good of their soul we have to keep in mind how they will receive our message. Even though you've obviously met this person before, few relationships are close enough that we can make blunt statements without taking some measure of politeness into account. For starters, you didn't begin by asking for their perspective on the issues. I would send them a message like, "I couldn't help but notice you're voting for Obama. I'm voting McCain, but I like hearing what different people think about the election to just know where they're coming from." Two things are accomplished: 1) You're inviting them to tell their story, and people loooove to tell their stories, so this begins things in friendlier territory, and 2) You've disclosed who you support, so they don't have to worry about your motives.

I know you probably think you know their reasons because all Obama supporters have the same reasons. This isn't true, and even if it were, it's still worth the time to hear them out because their opinion clearly matters enough to you to initiate a one-on-one conversation. Another way of putting it: If their opinion doesn't matter to you, then it shouldn't concern you who they are voting for.

The polite thing to do after someone has asked for another's perspective in a situation like this (especially if this person shows they are genuinely listening, not just feigning politeness) is to return the favor and genuinely listen to their perspective. Like a chess game, you're setting up a strategy that will lead them to choose between listening to you or being impolite. They might choose the latter, in which case this person wouldn't engage in a productive conversation anyway, and you've maintained your dignity. But most people can handle listening to the other side of an argument after they've gotten their piece in and knows they were heard.

The best you can realistically hope for is to give them something to think about. Few people change their minds on the spot -- at least not on matters of personal importance. If we are standing in the truth, we can afford to exercise some manners and win every disagreement in terms of dignity, and through our actions invite those who disagree to reconsider their conclusions.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1692905' date='Nov 4 2008, 10:23 AM']If someone brings up how they're voting, criticism of their choice is fair game. If they don't want people commenting on their vote, they need to keep it private.[/quote]

If we believe in the dignity of all human life, including the most hard-core liberals on earth, then I don't think criticism is automatically fair game. At least, it depends on how the criticism and the whole conversation is carried out. Good criticism occurs in the context of a conversation and a relationship, rather than a quick message pounded out in unfounded self-righteousness. People don't make their vote public knowledge in order to draw criticism... they do it because they are proud of their position and even desire to draw others to it. When you come across as a sourpuss, don't be surprised when you get the same attitude returned to you.

[TotusTuusMaria]

I don't agree with the idea that you did something wrong.

There is a such thing as a sin of omission. Sometimes we have opprotunities to say something to our friends or relatives that needs to be said for their spiritual welfare. The Church does not promote specific candidates, however, there are issues the Church has said that Catholics cannot move on and should make the key issues to look for when voting on a candidate, the issue of life being first and foremost.

It is against Church teaching to put other issues above the right to life.

There might have been a more eloquent way of going about it, but not everyone is good with words. Sometimes you say what has to be said for your own spiritual good and that of the person that needs charitable correction. Most of the time people don't take it well - including ourselves when it happens to us. But these things need to be said, or you could have even committed a sin if your conscience was calling you to say it and you didn't.

It is a sin to put other issues above the issue of life.

In Christifidles Laici, Pope John Paul II wrote: [b]“The common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights - for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture - is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition of all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination” (38).[/b]

It is very sad to hear of Catholic bishops, leaders, and teachers promoting the idea that it is a possibility and will be morally just nifty for someone to vote against life in [b][u]this[/u][/b] election. It is false, and it may lead many souls to be held accountable for the innocent unborn lives that will be lost if Obama is elected president. And then, if it does their (those that promoted the idea) own souls will be in such a sad state... we have to pray. I agree with what you did. Very sad that she took it in such a way.

Edited November 4, 2008 by TotusTuusMaria

[Madame Vengier]

I don't argue with nor reproach these Catholics anymore. I haven't since Clinton was elected the first time. Let me tell you something that I believe unwaveringly, 100%: These Catholics DON'T GET IT. They are so brainwashed by liberal America, liberal media, liberal Catholics, liberal professors, liberal parents (you name it--liberal everything) that has so infected this nation over the past 40 years that they genuinely don't know WHAT we are making a fuss about even if we DO try to talk sense into them and point out what it means to vote your Catholic Faith. They. don't. get. it. It's like they have been infected with a virus. They genuinely don't understand that you can't be a member of this religion and behave in a manner that is opposite of its Teachings. They cannot comprehend such a thing. So, I don't bother. I don't waste my time nor energy. All I can do is state what I believe and KNOW to be true, [u]if[/u] the occasion of conversation arises. That's all I can do.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1693205' date='Nov 4 2008, 05:12 PM']I don't argue with nor reproach these Catholics anymore. I haven't since Clinton was elected the first time. Let me tell you something that I believe unwaveringly, 100%: These Catholics DON'T GET IT. They are so brainwashed by liberal America, liberal media, liberal Catholics, liberal professors, liberal parents (you name it--liberal everything) that has so infected this nation over the past 40 years that they genuinely don't know WHAT we are making a fuss about even if we DO try to talk sense into them and point out what it means to vote your Catholic Faith. They. don't. get. it. It's like they have been infected with a virus. They genuinely don't understand that you can't be a member of this religion and behave in a manner that is opposite of its Teachings. They cannot comprehend such a thing. So, I don't bother. I don't waste my time nor energy. All I can do is state what I believe and KNOW to be true, [u]if[/u] the occasion of conversation arises. That's all I can do.[/quote]


Thats' interesting you said that. I encountered some students from a "Catholic" University (I only use quotation marks because this same campus held a Hilary Clinton rally in their gym) and was so in shock how their attitude about voting. I spoke up and several of them piped in. I couldn't believe their responses that "Bishops are hypocrites" "Nobody should tell me what to do", etc. If I was going to a Catholic University and saying that I would be knocking on someone's door and demanding a refund. They just could not fathom the idea that I'm suppose to be following some sort of truth not my own liberal ideas. But I wouldn't want to stop talking with these people, some might change.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Dave' post='1692815' date='Nov 4 2008, 12:38 AM']One of my Facebook friends, a fellow Catholic, had made it clear on her page that she intends to vote for Obama. This is a practicing Catholic girl who works with LifeTeen at her parish. So I sent her a message. I said, "One cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate such as Obama without objectively committing a mortal sin. I urge you to reconsider." That's all I said -- nothing more, nothing less.

She responded by removing me from her friend list and sent me a message entitled "let me alone." This girl said it wasn't my place to tell her how to vote. Then she had the gall to say, "Mortal sin? So is masturbation."

She concluded by threatening to contact Facebook if it continued.

To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men: Some people can't handle the truth![/quote]

I am with you Dave. The youth minister is the part that takes the cake though, she better be ready to answer some questions.

[Dave]

Speaking of the youth minister part ... should I report her to the LifeTeen head at her parish? Or should I just keep my mouth shut? For all I know, maybe the LifeTeen head is also an Obama voter ... but then again, maybe not.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Dave

[Lil Red]

[quote name='littleflower+JMJ' post='1693318' date='Nov 4 2008, 05:43 PM']I am with you Dave. The youth minister is the part that takes the cake though, she better be ready to answer some questions. [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
it sounded like a volunteer, not the youth minister.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Dave' post='1693321' date='Nov 4 2008, 06:46 PM']Speaking of the youth minister part ... should I report her to the LifeTeen head at her parish? Or should I just keep my mouth shut? For all I know, maybe the LifeTeen head is also an Obama voter ... but then again, maybe not.[/quote]

I would email a note of concern or send a letter to the DRE or someone who might be in the supervisor mode of the department or parish. Not something too harsh mind you but just a note of "Just thought you would like to know".