Paladin D Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I was thinking about this a few weeks ago, but forgot about it until now. As Catholics, we believe that the Catholic Church was the first "Church"; however, those who belong to the Orthodox Church claim the samething. I can understand how it would be absurd if a Baptist or a Methodist were to try make such a claim, but considering how ancient the Orthodox Church is with its traditions, (almost in parallel to Catholicism), what is it to say that the Orthodox Church isn't the original one? What would be some good arguments to counter this notion? Of course using quotes from the Early Church Fathers (such as St. Ignatius of Antioch) refering to the Church as "Catholic" probally wouldn't be sufficient enough, considering it's a title and the Orthodox counter could be that "Catholic" was the original name for the "Orthodox" Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I believe they are equally the same age. They are conjoined twins that should never have been separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 What Catherine said. The split happened in 1054. Rome was, undeniably, the early seat of Christianity, but Constantinople was an important center not long after, and it was still all one church back then. It just occurred to me that Constantinople is no more, and modern-day Istanbul is not a Christian city. I wonder if that has any persuasive power? The Eastern Orthodox have not been able to stay dominant in the patriarchies they claimed, while Rome still heads the largest religion in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 sorry to intrude with a dumb question but what are the difference between the two churches ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Two words in the Nicene Creed, and belief in the primacy of the Pope. That's the only stuff of any consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The Mormons think they came first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1689103' date='Oct 30 2008, 12:55 AM']The Mormons think they came first.[/quote] If we're going to get silly, I suppose we'll have to pull out the Jews next... Edited October 30, 2008 by philothea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1689103' date='Oct 30 2008, 12:55 AM']The Mormons think they came first.[/quote] lol, what about those Baptist that believe St. John the Baptist started their church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 [quote name='Maximilianus' post='1689157' date='Oct 30 2008, 08:05 AM']lol, what about those Baptist that believe St. John the Baptist started their church.[/quote] Hey, I grew up in one of those churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 [quote name='philothea' post='1689130' date='Oct 30 2008, 01:29 AM'] If we're going to get silly, I suppose we'll have to pull out the Jews next... [/quote] "Pull out the Jews"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Paladin D' post='1688914' date='Oct 29 2008, 07:15 PM']I can understand how it would be absurd if a Baptist or a Methodist were to try make such a claim, but considering how ancient the Orthodox Church is with its traditions, (almost in parallel to Catholicism), what is it to say that the Orthodox Church isn't the original one?[/quote] Hmm... wouldn't it be absurd for a Christian [i]not[/i] to make this claim? Whatever your Christian creed, if you don't believe Jesus and the Apostles believed in the same creed, why are you believing it? [quote name='Paladin D' post='1688914' date='Oct 29 2008, 07:15 PM']What would be some good arguments to counter this notion? Of course using quotes from the Early Church Fathers (such as St. Ignatius of Antioch) refering to the Church as "Catholic" probally wouldn't be sufficient enough, considering it's a title and the Orthodox counter could be that "Catholic" was the original name for the "Orthodox" Church.[/quote] Forget quoting the Church Fathers. That doesn't even work with well educated Protestants. I don't say this to cause scandal, but you cannot make an airtight case in favor of Catholicism from the Fathers. They do make a very strong case, but the Orthodox and Protestant traditions are also able to back themselves up with the Fathers. Of course, I don't think their cases are as strong as the Catholic case, but they are difficult to refute with those who know their stuff. [quote name='philothea' post='1688991' date='Oct 29 2008, 10:07 PM']It just occurred to me that Constantinople is no more, and modern-day Istanbul is not a Christian city. I wonder if that has any persuasive power? The Eastern Orthodox have not been able to stay dominant in the patriarchies they claimed, while Rome still heads the largest religion in the world.[/quote] When our Pope is warning Europe that they are on the brink of losing their Christian tradition? When Europe's largest mosque sits in Rome? Yeah, that would be about as persuasive as AIG's investment advice. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1689088' date='Oct 30 2008, 12:37 AM']sorry to intrude with a dumb question but what are the difference between the two churches ?[/quote] [quote name='CatherineM' post='1689094' date='Oct 30 2008, 12:45 AM']Two words in the Nicene Creed, and belief in the primacy of the Pope. That's the only stuff of any consequence.[/quote] Well, there are a couple more consequential differences, such as contraception. The "et Filia" of the Nicene Creed is optional in the Eastern Rites, so the Orthodox wouldn't have to adopt the Latin Rite's Creed if we joined into one communion. Second, the Orthodox do believe in the Pope's primacy as "first among equals," but they disagree with how Catholics interpret and practice that belief. Obviously, if this one matter can be agreed to somehow, so that the Orthodox would accept and obey the Pope's authority, other matters would fall into place. FWIW, I find the lack of central authority is the most convincing reason that favors Catholicism. If the Church was created as an image of heavenly authority, shouldn't there be one bishop with final say? I think the Orthodox agree in theory, but in practice they lack that authority, and the fact that there remains legitimate disagreement on contraception is a testament to that. The Orthodox Church simply won't have anything to say in response to the increasing onslaught of biotechnology developments. While it's unfortunate that some of these technologies will threaten the dignity of human life, we can pray that the need for authoritative teaching will finally bring East and West back together for good. Edited November 2, 2008 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I think one good argument against the Orthodox is that they believe in the divorce of consummated sacramental marriages, which is clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1695289' date='Nov 5 2008, 09:24 PM']I think one good argument against the Orthodox is that they believe in the divorce of consummated sacramental marriages, which is clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ.[/quote] The Orthodox would respond by saying that the Catholic Church allows divorce too, but simply calls it annulment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Which makes doesn't respond to the argument and is completely untrue. Annulments don't even resemble divorces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1697496' date='Nov 7 2008, 10:09 PM']Which makes doesn't respond to the argument and is completely untrue. Annulments don't even resemble divorces.[/quote] There are more than 50,000 annulments in the United States annually. I believe that most of those marriages are real and sacramental. The Catholic Church in America is in no place to criticize any other Church on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now