Charismatic Movement And Speaking In Tongues

[Norseman82]

I'm not going to rehash old arguments or whether or not the Charismatic movement is proper or not, but having been to charismatic Catholic prayer groups I will offer this:

There are people out there who develop the "I have the Holy Spirit, who needs the Church?" attitude. Be careful not to fall into that trap. That is why any good charismatic Catholic group needs to have a good, solid, orthodox Catholic clergy member as a leader to keep it from going "off the deep end". Use that as a measuring stick.

[scardella]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 01:43 PM']I have a question on the charismatic movement. I was wondering why is it a movement and not really part of the Church?[/quote]

A movement is part of the Church, so long as it's recognized by the Magisterium. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is recognized as a movement within the Church. A movement within the Church denotes an emphasis on one particular aspect of the faith without damaging other aspects of the faith. It is not necessary for the charismatic movement (or any other movement) to be an official teaching because it only emphasizes something that is already there (and has been there all the time).

[quote]A lot has changed on my end in the past year, one thing is I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. My life for Christ has changed so much and I felt closer to Him than any other time in the Church. Problem is, I had to go to a Pentecostal Church to get it.

Before I continue, know that I am very well Catechized Catholic and a firm believer/defender in my faith. Some here can attest to my faith and I already know some of the responses I'm going to get. So with that said, at least hear me out and understand what I am asking/saying before resorting to defensive talk.

I was confused when it first happened because I was sad that I couldn't get this in the Church. Why would Christ lead me to a Pentecostal Church (in which I converted from 12 years ago) and give me the gifts He has but not in the Catholic Church? Am I suppose to use the gifts I have now and bring them BACK to the Church?[/quote]

The Church has always had these gifts, and will always have them. The Charismatic Renewal is present precisely to remind people that the Holy Spirit has an active role in the Catholic Church; not just in the clergy in an institutional, far off manner. The movement reminds Catholics that the Holy Spirit desires a personal relationship (Protestants didn't invent that!) with each member as well, and he loves and guides us actively every day.

Like Ziggamafu said, there are charismatic parishes scattered about the nation. (From various things he's said and his coordinates, I suspect that i might go to the same parish.) However, they're pretty rare at the moment. I suspect they're more prevalent where there's a large community of Catholics, because then Catholics don't have as much of an "Catholic vs. Protestant" mentality. I don't think that anyone is called out of the Church, but one may be called to [i]experience[/i] something from a non-Catholic community in order to have perspective on where (in practice, not truth) the Church is strong and where it is lacking.

[quote]I have never spoken in tongues in my life. I was taught by the Church that it is an old thing and not really done anymore. That couldn't be farther from the truth. It is done, it is needed, it should be desired.

In 1 Corinthians 12:31 St. Paul says: "Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts"
he continues in 14:1 and 2:
"Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit."

What I have learned about this is that speaking in tongues is the bodies reaction to recieving the Holy Spirit. It's a natural effect that happens when the Spirit comes into you, or if you already have it, the bodies way of talking to God. Satan cannot interpret what you are saying.

With that said - I am confused as to why we can't experience this in the Church if 1) We recieve the Holy Spirit during baptism and confirmation 2) We recieve Him in the Eucharist?

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 sums up what I am saying:
14 (For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive.
15
So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind.

We are urged by St. Paul to ask to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, that we may worship in tongues, because it edifies our souls - brings us closer to Jesus.

We are urged also to seek to prophesy because that edifies the Church and lifts the Church up to Jesus.

1 Cor. 14:18 - St. Paul gives thanks to God for him speaking in tongues more than anyone else.

Also I reference that Baptism's that have taken place in Scripture - Acts of the Apostles for instance - EVERYONE of them baptised spoke in Tongues - EVERYONE of them were Baptised in the name of Jesus - NOT the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...why is that? Another discussion maybe?

Ok, so I'll get to my point. Read 1 Corinthians starting at Chapter 14 for more.

My last Scripture reference is this:
14:39 - "So, (my) brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues,"

My point is - why is Christs Church lacking in the Spirit? I know you don't think it is - but if you were to see how Jesus is working in other Churchs - in particular this one Pentecostal Church. You will see what I mean.

Their praise and worship for Jesus is over-whelming! They ARE a Church of the Pentecost. They are so close to being Catholic it's awesome. They even believe in the Real Presence of Christ - even though I still beleive its not from the line it should be to be valid..doesn't matter. Their HEARTS are there, They LOVE Christ and live for Him the way each of us should.

Thats the difference I see.

Maybe thats why Jesus is flowing through this Church so much - because the Pastor is a very holy man. Strict, Orthodox and gives 100% to Christ. The people there live the life everyday. They even have 24 hour prayer - which I thought was amazing for a Protestant church. The people that are there WANT to be there. They WANT to get up and dance, sing, cry, yell, jump, pray, run and laugh. This is the way you praise Jesus. This is Biblical, it's exciting![/quote]

Aye... that's why we, as Catholics, need to be a little more extroverted in our practices. While I agree that loving is an action, not an emotion, we, as limited humans, need that emotional support (in different measures and ways according to our personalities) to encourage us to continue to make that choice. It doesn't have to be dry all the time, and many people of more traditional spiritualities make it [b]seem like[/b] (I repeat, SEEM LIKE) the less you feel, the better. There are times of consolation and times of desolation, like tempering a sword. Sometimes you need the heat, sometimes you need cold. Both of these, believe it or not, are present to someone engaged in Charismatic worship. It's not always an emotional high. I think people experience that desolation in Charismatic worship and automatically think that it is not something of God.

[quote]I am not remotely saying that the Priests in our Church do not give 100% to God or are Orthodox or Strict, etc. What I am saying is that this Pastor WANTS the Holy Spirit, he desires to do the work of Christ and shephard his church to follow Christ. I guess it still comes out wrong - not sure how else to explain it but im not bashing on Priests...

Ok, let the bashing begin. But know that I ask this because I am seeking direction. Inside I am still Catholic. But I am going where Christ led me, and as much as I don't want to admit it - it was to this Church. Whether it was to be baptised in the Holy Spirit - then leave, or stay there I am not sure.

Let me also clarify that speaking in tongues may not sound like a big thing. But when your Spirit starts praising Jesus, and you have no control over your mouth or even know what you say - adding in the most awesome closeness you feel with Jesus, not even the best drug in the world can compare to the closeness of Christ.


Your Servant In Christ,
CatholicAndFanatical[/quote]

Umm...

Yeah.

[Aloysius]

we do not NEED to be more "extroverted" with our feeelings. it can be okay in moderation for such extroverted feelings oriented prayers to be around, but do not say that we experience the Holy Spirit less or recognize Him less because we are reverential and silent in much of our worship... the Spouse of the Holy Spirit herself was very reserved and contemplative, silent and reverential. though she was present in pentecost, she was not even one of those who spoke in the tongues of Xenolalia (foreign languages one couldn't know) let alone Glossolalia (which was not present at Pentecost)... the Church doesn't NEED the Charismatic movement to help us understand the presence of the Holy Spirit; we knew His true presence before and we still know it outside of your experiences... the Charismatic movement might be one small way to connect with the Holy Spirit but it is not the only way nor is it the principal way nor is it in any way, shape, or form similar to the principal historical way the Church has connected with the Holy Spirit. we were not lacking an understanding of the Holy Spirit's presence before the Charismatic movement, and we also do not lack it outside of the Charismatic movement now... I take most exception to those who think they've discovered the end-all-be-all of union with the Holy Spirit in these experiences which I see concrete physical and cultural explanations for... is the Holy Spirit working through Shamans too? no, this is a way to approach the Holy Spirit, but it is by no means in my mind a renewal of older devotion to the Holy Spirit, it is a new type of devotion to the Holy Spirit brought about because we want the membership and union we have lost as society has become so massively large scale and atomized and individuals have been alienated from community; so we harken back to small scale society practices and cultural experiences that there is no evidence actually occured in the early Church or in any other time in the Church's history but do indeed exist all throughout pagandom in similar ways

I said before about how the experience of Glossolalia in prayer is similar to the experience of the Latin Mass... the year in which Latin was taken out of the Liturgy was the first year Catholics actually did start to do this pentecostal-esque glossolalia speaking in tongues... it's about the human mind seeking a tool which veils the mystery of God; not bad, but not necessarily supernatural

and the silent non-extroverted prayer is not by any means devoid of emotion, it's devoid of extensive displays of emotion... shouting out things and going wild. we are to be in control of ourselves, that is what God wants of us... losing control of our faculties is not a good thing and is never of ... there are extra-ordinary extacies which ought not be part of most people's everyday prayer life, of course. there are immense and overwhelmingly powerful emotional experiences in Latin Masses, but they don't inspire people to "shout Amen" or something, they inspire people to keep gazing deeper and deeper into the mystery of God. there is an important thing to be said for the necessity of us being PASSIVE in prayer (of course, I know you will say that when grabbed by the Holy Ghost to pray in tongues, you are being passive, but the atmosphere you were in was clearly full of very active people hyping up the emotions of the group) because we are the BRIDE recieving the Bridegroom.

charismatic and pentecostal spirituality is very reminiscent to me of many cultural rituals throughout the world and I cannot say that the spirit of the group overtaking the individual here is anything supernatural... it happens everywhere outside Christendom very similarly... but again, perhaps it can be a type of tool which can help deepen one's faith, we do not condemn all that is practiced in pagandom, we simply do not think it is meritorious on its own because what good is it if the pagans do the same? again, it is like sugar or caffeine to the spiritual diet, these hype-up services... but the meat and potatoes taste great as well and are full of deep complexities of emotion and awe and reverence, all contained in that passivity which we ought to have in prayer, that silent reflection and contemplation.

[Guest]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1689783' date='Oct 31 2008, 05:28 AM']I had been baptised in the holy spirit there to.[/quote]

i said that wrong, i think they called it fire baptised or slayed in the spirit, heck i dunno i forget. i know there was no need for it since i was already baptised once when i was a baby.

[AccountDeleted]

I am not really sure why anything more is needed at Mass than simply to be able to come into the Presence of God. This alone is such an awesome event, that anything extra, like music, gifts of the spirit, etc, all seem to pale in comparison to it. I was raised agnostic and every time I enter a Catholic Church, I am overawed by the sheer fact of the Real Presence in the Tabernacle, which I didn't know growing up!

Being the weak, human vessels that we are, we seem to need all the little extras, and God is so good that He has blessed His Church with such a rich liturgy and the Gospel, so all the little extras like music, hymns, readings and responses, are simply tools He uses to help us in our adoration and worship of Him.

I attend Daily Mass during the week, and it is always very simple, no songs, nothing extra, and sometimes the priest even does the readings, the responsorial psalm and the gospel all by himself. The focus is on joining ourselves to the sacrifice of the Mass and on receiving the Body and Blood of our Savior. The Holy Spirit is always totally present at every Mass for me and there is never a question in my mind of whether Mass is dull or boring or any of those things because it is about participating in the sacrifice of Jesus and being in His presence. How could I desire anything more than that?

It just seems to me that things like speaking in tongues (or any other outward manifestation of the spirit) should be looked upon as the "cherry on top" of the sundae - nice to have but not really necessary. I think that external gifts of the spirit can become a type of "spiritual addiction", sought after for their own sake if one is not careful. And I can definitely see how the devil could use this to entice someone - he often uses what appears good to tempt us when he sees that we are not tempted by what appears evil, so discernment is always necessary when dealing with things that "feel good".

Getting back to basics, the most important thing is not whether or not one "feels something" during worship, but whether one is able to put their own desires aside to accept what God is offering. If that leads to tongues or the gift of tears, or any other gifts, then one can praise God for these, but not seek them out. We have no greater example of how to worship than that of Our Lord, Jesus, who told us that to do the will of the Father was His food. It is His will that we attend Mass, adore Him in the Blessed Sacrament and receive Him in the Eucharist. As long as we are obedient to the Church, we will be doing His will and be pleasing to Him. Everything else is extra.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 02:43 PM']Let me also clarify that speaking in tongues may not sound like a big thing. But when your Spirit starts praising Jesus, and you have no control over your mouth or even know what you say - adding in the most awesome closeness you feel with Jesus, [b][i]not even the best drug in the world[/i][/b] can compare to the closeness of Christ.[/quote]


I think the part that I bolded above is where people can really go off the right track. I have read about people who feel the same way, who started out wanting authentic worship but in the end wound up "addicted" to the drug-like ecstasy that this worship style can produce. One Sunday as they got up to go to church they realized that they were going [b]not [/b]because they wanted to praise the Lord but because they were hoping to get high. If it didn't happen and they weren't feeling it the praise and worship hour was a bust and not worth going to. They realized that Jesus is NOT "better than meth," He is on a completely different level, but they were approaching Him the same way they approached their drugs.

I don't mean to rag on charismatics, I actually experienced this myself with an ordinary mainstream Mass in the suburban midwest. There was nothing special about the way they celebrated Mass, I had just been away from the Church for a long time and so the liturgy really "pleased the flesh" (and I don't mean sexually of course, it was appealing to the senses and was a pleasurable experience). Eventually I stopped getting a high from showing up on Sunday and it was tempting to add other things like daily Mass or devotions for the sole purpose of chasing those good feelings. I had to remind myself that I should attend Mass or pray novenas only for the glory it gives to God and not for the satisfaction it can give me. It was pretty difficult for me, I think in some respects I have an addictive personality.

[Theosis3]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1689264' date='Oct 30 2008, 12:18 PM']He said "I am going to lay my hands on you and you are going to be filled with the Holy Spirit - what will happen next is to just relax and let it go". He layed his hands on me, and I instantly started leaning back and I had no control over my mouth whatsoever..if I had to compare what my mouth was doing to something..it would be when your cold and your jaw trembles up and down. Except I had no control to stop it..I TRIED to stop it, but then my tongue started moving and making sounds that I wasn't doing it on my own. I was confused, scared but I trusted this was from Jesus. I was crying and speaking this way for a very short time. Afterwards I felt at peace, I felt refreshed, I felt so close to Jesus it was amazing. I spent the next few hours crying and thanking Jesus for what I had went through.[/quote]

Peace. After reading that experience I wanted to comment on that. Speaking in tongues as what you described above is very different from the speaking of tongues in the bible. Speaking in tongues necessarily means that no interpretation is needed at all. To give you an example, an Apostle traveling the land and preaching may have been speaking in tongues yet the people understood what he said IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. What do you think the purpose of speaking in tongues was? Obviously in that example, to evangelize. Speaking in tongues is not where people "babble" incomprehensibly and others need to interpret what is being said for the sake of the congregation. This type of activity can only be construed as confusing and we should be suspicious about it. If you read passages in the Acts of the Apostles, it says that the people heard the preaching in their own language. Again, that means that the miracle occurred for the LISTENER not for the speaker!

Personally I find speaking in tongues as done in protestant churches to be frightening, confusing and question the entire thing. If it is not for the glory of God, but for the person, then something is wrong with that picture. Sadly, there is much in Protestantism that has good intent but lacks the Wisdom and discernment necessary to determine if this is in fact from God...

Is the Eucharist not a miracle enough that we have to go seeking 'outward signs' ?

God be with you. Take care friend.

[Seven77]

I think that a simple p&w worship/charismatic hour during the week (not Sunday...the Holy Mass should indeed be very reverent) could be beneficial.... personally I think that there is a time for [i]every [/i]kind of prayer.

[mortify]

From the original post:

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 02:43 PM']My point is - why is Christs Church lacking in the Spirit? I know you don't think it is - but if you were to see how Jesus is working in other Churchs - in particular this one Pentecostal Church. You will see what I mean.[/quote]

In my opinion the poster is unaware of the differences between the various graces and their importance.

What a Christian should focus on is [b]Sanctifying Grace[/b], which is the grace that helps us commune with God, enter into Divine friendship, and be made worthy of eternal glory in heaven. This is the grace that we should strive for, and it is the grace that the Catholic Church gives out [b]ABUNDANTLY[/b] through the sacraments, thus how can anyone say the Church lacks spirit when she possess the channels of grace necessary for salvation?

Now there are Charismatic graces, but again these are graces that are [i]not salvific.[/i] In other words, just because a person possesses charismatic gifts it doesn't mean they're in a state of sanctifying grace, in fact, one can be in a state of mortal sin and still possess such gifts! Let us consider the warning of our Lord:
[b][color="#0000FF"][size=3]
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"[/size][/color][/b]
[b]Matthew 7:22[/b]

This is why it's wrong to assume that just because a person or CONGREGATION has some preternatural power they also have favor with God, or filled with the Spirit. The fact is possessing these powers does not indicate holiness! We should also be cautious because the Devil is also capable of granting charismatic type gifts, in fact I heard a priest once tell a story of a linguist who was present at one of these Charistmatic gatherings and he heard congregants praising Satan in ancient languages!


The pentecostal congregation the poster visited may be abundant in preternatural gifts of uncertain origin, but I can assure you such a congregation is lacking in the richness and security abundant in the Catholic Church.


God bless,
Mortify

Edited November 18, 2008 by mortify