Charismatic Movement And Speaking In Tongues

[Ziggamafu]

From Scripture Catholic:

[quote]1 – The gift of tongues is a lesser gift from God. While speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit, Paul teaches that it is a lesser gift on the continuum of divine gifts from God (1 Cor. 12:10,28,30). For example, Paul says that tongues is a much lesser gift than the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:1-5,19,22). In fact, the gift of tongues is not even mentioned among the gifts of the Spirit in the latter books of the New Testament (Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Peter 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6).

2 – The gift of tongues will cease. Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:8). The Greek word for “cease” (pauomai) means that the gift of tongues will end abruptly, on its own, and will not be replaced by another gift. The gift of tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit that is said to “cease” in this way. When Paul says that prophecies and knowledge will “pass away” (1 Cor. 13:8), the phrase “pass away” (in Greek, katargeo) indicates that these gifts will be replaced by a superior power. This appears to take place when we begin our life in eternity (1 Cor. 13:10-12). Not so with tongues.

Paul does not say when the gift of tongues would cease, and whether the gift would return intermittently after its cessation. However, Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased by the time of his day. Augustine explained that this was because the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations, and tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization (Aquinas agreed). The fact that the gift of tongues is not recorded in later books of the New Testament suggest that the gift may have even been ceasing during the biblical period.[/quote]

My first great concern is that glossolalia as a supernatural or specifically Christian gift has virtually zero support in all of Church history. Even [i]if[/i] we see glossolalia understood this way in the New Testament, it seems to disappear altogether by the time the last Apostle has died. If this is of God, why the ~1800 year hole in its manifestation? Such an alarming skip is similar to what Protestants claim of sola scriptura or to what Mormons claim involving the "Mass Apostacy" of the ancient Church. It is just too far-fetched.

My second great concern is that, whereas the Holy Spirit has the role of reversing Babel as one of his primary - even immediate - missions, we see a renewal and ratification of Babel in public glossolalia. I'm glad Aloysius mentioned the technical term; there are numerous interesting documentaries and writings that reveal just how cross-cultural and "natural" the phenomenon is. And yet it is singled out by modern Protestants as something supernatural and specifically Christian.

My third great concern is that you seem to be putting private, subjective experiences above public, objective Church teaching in your implication that the Church has had a serious deficiency for about 1800 years. Once again, this is a rather Gnostic approach to Christian spirituality. I think the nail was hit on the head with the reference to sexual immorality. People who have premarital or extramarital sex can and often do have intensely "spiritual" experiences during their fornication; the emotional, euphoric "highs" produced evoke a passionately sincere, "how could something that FEELS so RIGHT be so wrong???!"

But it is wrong. Glossolalia might not be "wrong", but neither do I think putting the term "supernatural" on it is right. Nor is it right to attend a non-Catholic service in place of one's grave obligation to Sunday Mass.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]"They even believe in the Real Presence of Christ - even though I still beleive its not from the line it should be to be valid..doesn't matter."[/quote]

This, I think, is the troubling thing. The Eucharist is a big reason people decide to become Catholic. And its a big reason people decide to stay Catholic.

If you've reached a point where it doesn't matter to you whether or not the Eucharist is valid or not ... I think you need to ask yourself if that's something you really believe. And if it is, how did it get to be that way?

Assuming that at some point the Eucharist was at the center of your faith ... what changed in your spiritual life that it started becoming less important?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

You all have been so helpful in your answers and understanding. Thank you for that. Slappo, thanks for the super quick response and I agree, feelings should definitely be secondary and I will need to focus more on the Eucharist and prayer to change this. After what I felt, or appears what I think I felt, has a strong hold on me. I will talk to my Priest about this and figure out a way of dealing.

Aloysius, excellent post as usual. I have heard some interpretations at this new place and at first I was really skeptical, then became kind of ashamed because I was skeptical. The few messages I did hear pretty much just said that we are at the eleventh hour and that we are to worship Jesus with more furver than before and to ask to have a heart of lost souls so that we can bring them to Christ. Pretty much the things we should already be doing.

Before I went to this church I always assumed that if the Holy Spirit was talking through someone thru interpretation that if it was really the Spirit He would say 'Go to the nearest Catholic Church!' - but that didn't happen. Was it real? I can't say no it wasn't for sure...I hope it was, for these people's sake.

I thought of it like this as well. Remember in Scriptures Jesus sent the Apostles out, when they came back they mentioned to Jesus that they ran across two people proclaiming Jesus and teaching other about Him. The Apostles told them to stop - did Jesus agree with them? Because they were not in the right group or an Apostle? No, He said to leave them be because who isn't against Me is for Me.

I take that in the same light as some Protestant churchs, in particular this one. Would Jesus really push away these people if their hearts were true and were full of love for Jesus? Like the two people that the Apostles ran into - their hearts were in the right place, so Jesus blessed them.

I dont see Jesus pushing these people away or allowing them to be damned because they worshipped Him somewhere other than the Church - especially if it wasn't their fault. Meaning, a lot of bad things happen in the Church. You and I know this, a lot of people have been hurt one way or another by the Church. True, they shouldn't blame the Church as a whole and cast away the Teachings and Foundation of the Church - but people are like that.

ok enough about that..my posts are always so long - sorry.

Loiusville: Thanks for the awesome reply. Funny you mentioned the African-American churchs because they one I have been going too is a mix of African-American and others, and man - that music really hits you and gets you praising..I love it. Every heard of Tye Tribet? I hope that last name is right. He is a singer..pretty famous with Pentecostals and more anyway - that type of music is what they do. I love it.

But, to get back to reality I am not about to trade the Eucharist for good music, no way!

I appreciate the replies of everyone else - sorry for the long posts.

I just want to say one last thing. It is really trying on me, at least this past year has. I went from being a part of a Church that I loved and cherished - to back sliding a little - to being physically and emotionally attacked by a demon (for real and no im not mental) - to wondering where God wants me - to leaving what I have known as Truth for the past 9 years or so to something I am not certain of - To doubting everything that I have known for 9 years as Truth because of the things I have experienced in this new place - To now wondering what the heck went wrong and why I can't get a solid answer on where or why I am here..

ugh. Thank you all for the replies. I am sorry if I came off in a bad way at first. I swear I meant nothing by it. I love my Church, I love being Catholic I love everything about it. I hate second guessing myself on things. Sometimes I just wish Jesus would slap me in the head and say 'HEY! I'm over here dummy!"


Now getting my wife convinced the Church isn't the Whore of Babylon is a whole nother thing..*sigh*

CAF

Edited October 29, 2008 by CatholicAndFanatical

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1688589' date='Oct 29 2008, 11:27 AM']This, I think, is the troubling thing. The Eucharist is a big reason people decide to become Catholic. And its a big reason people decide to stay Catholic.

If you've reached a point where it doesn't matter to you whether or not the Eucharist is valid or not ... I think you need to ask yourself if that's something you really believe. And if it is, how did it get to be that way?

Assuming that at some point the Eucharist was at the center of your faith ... what changed in your spiritual life that it started becoming less important?[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. I wasn't saying the Eucharist doesn't matter or whether it was real or not. I was saying that these people believe with all their heart that it is truly the body of Christ - to Jesus that has to have some merit - they have Faith and they Trust. Jesus really doesn't ask for more than that.

Me personally, I have never partaked in their communion, mainly because they only do it twice a year. But if they had it more I wouldnt of. That was one thing they couldn't waiver me on and they tried!

And the Eucharist has always been the center of my Faith, with the exception of this past year. I know what I need to do now and will do it. The Eucharist will once again be my center - through adoration and prayer. I miss Him.

Edited October 29, 2008 by CatholicAndFanatical

[Slappo]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688724' date='Oct 29 2008, 10:23 AM']The Eucharist will once again be my center - through adoration and prayer. I miss Him.[/quote]


Awww!!! I miss Him too and I just got to receive Him this morning! Yay Jesus!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688720' date='Oct 29 2008, 02:19 PM']Before I went to this church I always assumed that if the Holy Spirit was talking through someone thru interpretation that if it was really the Spirit He would say 'Go to the nearest Catholic Church!' - but that didn't happen. Was it real? I can't say no it wasn't for sure...I hope it was, for these people's sake.[/quote]

That very false assumption seems to be part of your trouble, and I notice a lot of Catholics seem to think a holy Protestant is a contradiction in terms. For one, the Holy Spirit prophesying, "Get thee to the nearest Catholic Church!" would be like God telling Abraham right off the bat, "One of your descendents will be my Son and someday restore the New Heavens and New Earth!" Abraham would have no idea what God was talking about. Same goes for a Protestant, especially one raised in their tradition who has simply followed what they were taught growing up. To most of them, a direct command to join another denomination would probably be immediately dismissed as a demon speaking to them.

Besides, God doesn't give marching orders... He works mysteriously through people. That's where we come in, by loving people in a radical way that will test ourselves as much as it will test the assumptions of those who believe their Catholic friends aren't really Christians. Now that your false assumptions have been broken, maybe it's time to break some of their false assumptions (lovingly, of course, because all this is a time for everyone to grow deeper in love with God).

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688720' date='Oct 29 2008, 02:19 PM']I take that in the same light as some Protestant churchs, in particular this one. Would Jesus really push away these people if their hearts were true and were full of love for Jesus? Like the two people that the Apostles ran into - their hearts were in the right place, so Jesus blessed them.[/quote]

Jesus never pushes anybody away. We push Him away. And why wouldn't He use you to draw this Pentecostal community closer to Himself? He longs to share His Body with them, but we can't rely on a magical revelation from the Heavens to make it all clear. They'll have to be convinced through Catholics whose actions testify to the Gospel in a way they will force the choice (to become Catholic) that they're currently able to ignore because it's not really on their radar.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688720' date='Oct 29 2008, 02:19 PM']Loiusville: Thanks for the awesome reply. Funny you mentioned the African-American churchs because they one I have been going too is a mix of African-American and others, and man - that music really hits you and gets you praising..I love it. Every heard of Tye Tribet? I hope that last name is right. He is a singer..pretty famous with Pentecostals and more anyway - that type of music is what they do. I love it.[/quote]

I'm not very familiar with any African-American music, so I haven't heard of Tye Tribet. I might recognize some of his music though, if I heard it.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688720' date='Oct 29 2008, 02:19 PM']But, to get back to reality I am not about to trade the Eucharist for good music, no way![/quote]

Indeed... trade good music for the Eucharist...

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688720' date='Oct 29 2008, 02:19 PM']I just want to say one last thing. It is really trying on me, at least this past year has. I went from being a part of a Church that I loved and cherished - to back sliding a little - to being physically and emotionally attacked by a demon (for real and no im not mental) - to wondering where God wants me - to leaving what I have known as Truth for the past 9 years or so to something I am not certain of - To doubting everything that I have known for 9 years as Truth because of the things I have experienced in this new place - To now wondering what the heck went wrong and why I can't get a solid answer on where or why I am here..[/quote]

That's why Christ gave us Penance (which I hear is how the Church now refers to Confession/Reconciliation).

God bless,
Jason

[Guest Jon]

[color="#000080"]This by far is my favorite thread - you all have so much to offer.

And I must tell you - I have wanted to "speak in tongues" for about a year now - I have heard amazing things about it and how it enhances your connection to the Lord and your prayer life. That it is a language of your soul directly to God that the devil can not understand. But, yes, then there is the gift of interpretation. I don't want to make t complicated - it seems that being as a child makes the simplicity of the other gifts happen. :)

Thank you for explaining as you did, CAF, that you raised your hands and started praising and it just happened. I hope I got that right.

1 Cor 12 is a chapter I must dissect more and read all the translations. And yet, I don't want to be too cerebral. I have been speaking about the Lord when I have been "pushed aside" many times and words just started coming out of me that were...just divine - I was and the people around me were transformed - there backs straightened and there mouths dropped - they could tell something "magical" was happening. ( In other words, it was so real others were effected.)
So maybe one day I will be blessed with the gift of tongues. I in no way interpreted that you felt everyone should speak in tongues, btw.

Thank you for the ref to Tye Tribet.

Maybe I am misunderstanding "emotional state" ---but Aloysius mentioned above that we shouldn't attempt to put ourselves in emotional states or situations to try to elicit the gifts of the Holy Spirit ---did I get that pretty close? ( My apologies )

Like I said, it could just be a semantic issue, but I often try/attempt to get myself into a state or situation that I am transformed from my "normal" thought patterns ( beta, theta?) to a transcendent realm ( alpha?) where the mysteries of the the Lord, Creator, Sustainer are revealed and then the gifts of insight, wisdom, clarity, patience, love, a peace that goes beyond understanding fall like stardust into my conscious awareness. It is an upliftment that no intellectual will experience using logic or reciting any dogma from any world religion.

I am reminded of Jesus when the clock was ticking: John 16:12[color="#A0522D"] I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth... [/color] Please read the different translations and read more.

Now, I, like you CAF, have been writing too long maybe --though, I love your long posts. :)

God bless for now,
Jon[/color]

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Good morning Jon, thanks for the reply and I am glad my long windedness in my posts is tolerable.

Tye Tribbett (proper spelling, i looked it up hehe) is pretty awesome, he has some youtube video's as well. He has a song called 'Want it all back' or something like that really gets you moving. Its about telling the Devil that you are going to take back all the things that he has taken from you - like peace, love, happiness, etc. It's not anti-Catholic, or even Pentecostal I think, but good Christian music (i.e. MIchael W. Smith who isnt Catholic but Catholic listen to him). You should check him out. One song I just watched on YouTube is called "Everything to Me" - I have it on CD too, but this song just awesome.

About when/how I started speaking in tongues...Spaces added for readability

When I started going to this new place I had a lot of thoughts go through my mind - I guess the funniest one was "If they pull out those snakes..im outta here!". I was relieved at how the service really was. It was really refreshing to see people get excited for Jesus, excited enough to run around the church, excited enough to scream "hallelujah Jesus!" at the top of their lungs during service..an people not think wierd of them. Watching these people the first few times was exciting. Service was actually fun and moving - ALL in the name of Jesus. It wasn't for themselves they were praising, dancing, shouting, crying, giving their all to Jesus. I wanted that fervant Spirit that can worship Jesus outwardly like that - and not have to do it quietly and softley in a pew.

I wasn't sure I could do that. I wanted too, but I was afraid of what people would of thought of me so even though on the inside I was jumping and screaming praying hard to Jesus - I didn't do it outwardly.

It did take a few times for me be comfortable enough. It took a few times going to the Alter calls and having lots of people come pray over you and for you.

After those few times of going it was easier to become a part of it. Everyone was friendly and prayed for you and just made you a part of the church whether you intended on going there or not and despite if you tithed there or not.

The day that it finally happened we had a guest speaker, they called him a 'Prophet'. He travels all around the world speaking of Jesus and healings and stuff. His message was powerful, nothing prophetic I might add but powerful nonetheless. During the end after the awesome Praise and Worship they did an Alter Call and I went up. I at this point wanted to be 'Baptised by the Holy Spirit' and desired it so much. I prayed for it daily and seeked after it. I went to the Alter and began to praise Jesus, asking for forgiveness, repenting of everything that I have done. Asking Him to show me and come into me. I was sobbing at this point - crying in thankfullness for everything that He has done for me.

As I was praying I felt someone come up to me and he started talking to me. I wish I could remember everything he had told me but he instructed me to lift up my hands - so I lifted them up - then he told me to tell Jesus that I was sorry for my sins and that I repent of all that I had done, I did that.

He said "I am going to lay my hands on you and you are going to be filled with the Holy Spirit - what will happen next is to just relax and let it go". He layed his hands on me, and I instantly started leaning back and I had no control over my mouth whatsoever..if I had to compare what my mouth was doing to something..it would be when your cold and your jaw trembles up and down. Except I had no control to stop it..I TRIED to stop it, but then my tongue started moving and making sounds that I wasn't doing it on my own. I was confused, scared but I trusted this was from Jesus. I was crying and speaking this way for a very short time. Afterwards I felt at peace, I felt refreshed, I felt so close to Jesus it was amazing. I spent the next few hours crying and thanking Jesus for what I had went through.

That was just the start of it.

At this new place they have 24 hour prayer, much to my delight. I volunteered to take the 6pm-9pm shift on Tuesdays.

I was sitting on the alter steps talking to Jesus. Telling Him that I wanted to be apart of something, to show me where He wanted me. I was still confused at that point why I was able to get this here, to feel this way here. A lot has happened at this point in my life, I was still getting over the fact that I had a demon, a real life angrily growling demon, in my house that physically touched me..thats a lot to take hold of!

As I was setting there praying to Jesus my brother-in-law comes in and talks with me for a while. I should also mention at this point I was confused and doubting what had just happened when that 'prophet' came to town and had me speaking in tongues. I was starting to doubt myself that that really happened. He told me that it was satan trying to tell me that and don't beleive it.

Anyway, brother-in-law was talking to me and we both suddenly had the urge to pray together. It was wierd, like it was something inside of me that told me to pray. So we stood up in front of the Alter, I prayed and he prayed, he put his hands on my head and started to pray and boom, it hit again..but this time more powerful. I can't explain the feeling - but it was like I was off my feet and floating, my mouth and tongue going 100mph speaking in tongues and I couldnt stop it..I was able to say a few words to my b-i-l but then back to speaking. It was like "What-bllll-is-bllll-this-blllllllllllll?" I didn't know, but it was the Holy Spirit being there amongst us, it was my Spirit reacting to the Holy Spirit. I praised Jesus in my mind as my Spirit praised Him through tongue.

It was a fantastic experience I must say!

That was the most I have spoken in tongues, it lasted about 30 minutes but the time took forever. After it quit, it was like the room suddenly became quiet, you KNEW something had just happened but couldn't explain just what.

This is why I stated in one of my posts above that it has a strong hold on me. If this isn't from Jesus then whoever it is from is doing a good job at leading people to Jesus. I don't think of anything else but Jesus when this happens. If it's a demon, it sure is causing me to follow more of God and desire to be a follower of Jesus than the opposite.


Wow.I'll stop here.

I am making an appointment with one of my old Priests I use to talk to daily and sit down and talk to him about everything that has happened in the last year. I want his perspective and guidance. Like I mentioned above, I miss being Catholic and I know I'm coming back. I just need to make sense of what has happened up to this point. I am not convinced it's not of God, but I know it's not inline with what Christ wanted when He created His Church.

Oh yea, spaces were added so it was easier to read, not because I failed English class.

God Bless Jon and everyone.

Your Servant In Christ,
CAF

Edited October 30, 2008 by CatholicAndFanatical

[CatholicAndFanatical]

This is a good example of what one of those services was like:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D2tqzWgqg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D2tqzWgqg[/url]

[Dave]

You went to non-Catholic altar calls? I'm sorry, but that could very well be seen as apostasy by some, even though you don't claim to have renounced the Catholic faith.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Maybe so Dave. It is what it is. It was easy before I did something like that to say the same thing and to automatically say 'If it's not Catholic it's not right' but once you experience it you get a different tune. My tune is, I'm meeting with my Priest to talk about my experience and go from there. Confession will be a part of this, no I never and will never renounce my Catholicism - just someone that went down a wrong road it seems. You've been there, just like myself. Rest assured my friend, im coming back home.

[Aloysius]

as a student of anthropology, these experiences fascinate me... but do not prove to me any supernatural origin as similar experiences are described throughout the world. when groups come together and get emotionally revved up that way, it is a very interesting phenomenon (not an exclusively Christian phenomenon) when the spirit of the group overtakes the individual spirit. I do not say that it is bad, nor that it could not have supernatural aspects especially in a Christian context, but in those experiences I do not see the Church as described in the New Testament or as it has been experienced throughout the world through all history... the Church has always developped based upon fixed formulae of prayers (the Our Father, for example, as well as instructions for the Liturgy with origins as early as AD 40 in the didache) and much reservation (when you pray, lock yourself in your closet and do not let others see you) and reverential silence. there is a place in the Church for extra-ordinary extacies; but what good is it if we gather ourselves in the same types of groups as the pagans do to rev ourselves up into extacy? at least, what good is it if that is our main form of worship and at the heart of our worship? it is not a steady diet for spirituality; it is sugar and caffeine... the reverential mass is the meat and potatoes of spirituality. not that sugar and caffeine are not ok in moderation, and when found in things like sodas and coffees, you're also getting some water and good stuff but you cannot live on it alone. so it is with these extacies, which are indeed cultural phenomena which can be witnessed throughout the world (though most small scale societies are dying out rapidly and it is only there where you really find equivalent types of cultural phenomena)

[Madame Vengier]

*delete*

Edited October 31, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Saint Therese]

I attend a Catholic charismatic group and I've never spoken in tongus and i don't have a desire to. I know St.Paul says that you shouldn't speak intongues if there is no interpreter.
Why would the Holy Spirit give you the gift of tongues if there is no one to interpret? How does it build up the body of Christ?
I've heard of people "speaking in tongues" in languages they didn't understand, and actually they were cursing God in some other language. I've heard of this happening.

[Guest]

whats up bro,
i attened a church like this about a year and a half ago. they had a black pastor and boy could he preach, realy good to listen to. they spoke in tounges and really had good praise and worship. i was even taking classes to joiin. i told them durning one of the classes that i was catholic and that i still considered myself catholic. the pastors wife responded by saying " well im not saying catholics go to hell but you'll end up choosing one or the other because we really get down to it here"
she was not saying it in a vicious way or trying to offend me, she just really believed that. the pastor had said before that he believed that God did not establish one denomination. so anyways once she said this I knew this wasnt for me because i wasnt ready to give up my catholic faith. I had been baptised in the holy spirit there to. I spoke some tounges although it felt forced almost as if i was just sorta doing it because i was being coached to. i dunno. i was often asked if i was praying in my new prayer language ?? lol they really encourged praying in tounges. anyhow those people were really good people and were on fire for God. this church was non denominational and they called themselves an apastolic church. they took communion twice a month.
my conclusion is i love the catholic church so much more. i love being able to go and be wiith the lord durning mass and it being quite and the peacefullness of that. i like not having to talk to everybody and shake everybodys hand. now that might seem like im being rude and unchristian liike but at the same time thats one of the things i really like about going to mass.
ultimetly God showed me that the catholic church is where he wants me. although these people are christians they do not have the complete truth. ya i believe their churches are spirit filled big time. God is present, but remember God is present anywher where two or more are gathered in his name. ( i think i said that right) so anyways, godbless you and thanks for sharing this thread, its been a really good read.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Guest