Charismatic Movement And Speaking In Tongues

[Noel's angel]

Wow there a wee second. I did read your post, and I'm not a debate-loving Phatmasser. You are more likely to find me in any other part of Phatmass than the debate table, but I came to this topic because I find it interesting. I was only trying to help. I never assumed you just 'imagined' this or anything, but I said it was possible. Which it is.
I find it irritating when people say 'don't bash me' or whatever, and then come along and do the same to others.

BTW, it has everything to do with Church teaching. You're going outside the Church for something that can only be found in its fullness inside the Church.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Noel's angel

[Dave]

Well hey!!!

Now that you're back on Phatmass, I wish my first post addressed to you wasn't negative or harsh, but it's gonna be both of those things.

1. Going to a Pentecostal church does not -- I repeat, DOES NOT -- fulfill your Sunday obligation. If you've been attending their services instead of Mass, that's gravely sinful.

2. Are you sure it was God who led you to that church? Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. I'm not knocking the charismatic movement in and of itself, but going to a non-Catholic church to participate in it ... Satan wants to lead folks out of the Church. Sounds dangerous to me.

[Maggyie]

Have you ever met a man who "feels called" to leave his wife and hook up with the pretty young thing from work? It's actually more common among Christian men then you think. Usually under the pretext of saving the pretty young thing for Jesus. By involving her in adultery. Sigh.

My point is that plenty of times people feeeeeeeeeel called to something when what they mean is that it makes them feeeeel good, "tugs their heart," as you called it. Now I know, it's not a good thing, substituting sensual or emotive enjoyment for the will of the Father - but it is very human. It is a sin that can be very hard to recognize in ourselves and very easy to recognize in other people. Emotional people, who like emotional experiences like charismatic worship, can get into it deep, although [i][b]anyone [/b][/i]can fall for it extremely easy!

Why aren't you in the Charismatic Renewal?

Edited October 28, 2008 by Maggie

[Aloysius]

I suggest you study up on the linguistic concept of Glossolalia, as it is a very probably explanation for most of the babbling-style tongues that you find in pentecostal and charismatic circles. It is when the brain begins to apply nonsensical phonetics to its natural grammatical way of thinking... you needn't be coaxed; you simply must go to a place where this is assumed to be something that ought to occur and you might find yourself inspired into it. Why were you able to find it outside of the Catholic Church but not within it? So long as you hold to the position that the Holy Spirit is indeed present in the Catholic Church, then the only explanation is that you had to go to a place where these things were believed to occur. Otherwize, you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit is somehow less present in the Catholic Church, and that is simply an unacceptable position in my opinion. It would seem to make more sense that you went to an atmosphere where these things occured, and your brain (which is naturally mimetic and imitative)

if this helps you in your faith, I'm not going to condemn it (though I am going to kindly ask that you keep it away from me and do not go around suggesting it as a necessary sign of the Holy Spirit)... but I do not hold it to be supernatural... it would be a tool that helps you discover the mysteries of God (the way the veil of Latin over the liturgy and other prayers helps connect me to the mysteries of God). the concept that without experiences such as Glossolalia people are somehow less connected to the Holy Spirit would be absolutely offensive and likely heretical... even if your tongues were supernatural, gifts such as tongues are extraordinary and needn't be prevalent to show that we are devoted to and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Show me some tongues which display Xenoglossy and I'll believe it's supernatural; but when you simply show me the babbling style of tongues, I will point out that that is simply the way our brain can work when placed into a situation where there is expectation of tongues and you can habituate it so that your brain continues to generate such things.

"feeling" the presence of Christ does NOT mean Christ is present, it means that you are in an emotional atmosphere whilest thinking about Christ.

[Galloglasses' Alt]

For the record, and this is just a question here don't eat me, why is speaking in tounges that important anymore?

[philothea]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1688233' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:33 PM']I suggest you study up on the linguistic concept of Glossolalia, as it is a very probably explanation for most of the babbling-style tongues that you find in pentecostal and charismatic circles.[/quote]
Thanks for mentioning the technical term. The article about it in Wikipedia is interesting.

[Guest Jon]

[color="#483D8B"]Oh Bro,

I just love ya.

Thank you for your post. I had to visit your profile because I was going to say, sistah.
Your post was so passionate it seemed female to me. Crazy me.

I know that there are Pentacostal Cath groups around - I haven't found them yet - I'm so busy and happy - I haven't felt the need as yet.

Our relationship with Jesus and Our Father and the Holy Spirit is so wonderful and boundless as the sea - you go for it. Don't ever be confined by anything - judgment of others, 3rd c precepts - let your soul be all that it can be.

May you be confident in what the Lord has revealed to you,
You're my brother,
Blessings,
Jon[/color]

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1688252' date='Oct 28 2008, 08:06 PM']For the record, and this is just a question here don't eat me, why is speaking in tounges that important anymore?[/quote]
really, in worship settings it seems to me to serve one of the same purposes that Latin once served: creating a veil of mystery around the deepest prayers of our heart, a sign that there are things beyond our human intellect that we must continually seek to go deeper into... now, with Latin it is possible to study to the point where the language no longer creates the same degree of mystery (though its foreign charecter, as we are not native speakers, will always create a bit of a mysterious atmosphere; and the depths of the prayers keep it deep as well)

in short, Glossolalia operates basically like a sacred language does in many religions (Hebrew for Judaism, Latin for Catholicism, Old Church Slavonic for some Eastern Rites, et cetera)... if you've ever been to an Extraordinary Form Latin Mass and rally allowed yourself to get deeply into it, you know what I'm talking about with the experience of mystery created by the veil of the sacred language; apply that concept to the experience of Glossolalia and you can see the appeal and the prayer experience it might create

[Slappo]

Aside from anything else, I think I'd ask... why do you think EVERYONE is supposed to speak in tongues?

Because St. Paul says he gives praise to God above all else for his speaking in tongues?

That doesn't mean that everyone is supposed to speak in tongues.... a priest might say he gives thanks to God above all else for his ability to hear confession or say mass, surely that wouldn't mean we're all supposed to...

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Oh, God love you guys..too many people with good come backs to respond tool.

well, Slappo I say everyone should desire to speak in tongues because thats what St. Paul said in 1 corinthians - posted the actual Scripture in one of my posts above. Thats where I get this.


Ok..so many good posts.

David!! Missed ya bro, dont worry about the post its helping me for sure.

Ok Aloysius : Great point and I'll research that word..But what you may not understand is that I went into this NOT believing at all. I went in with the intentions that I was going to see where I was led, I prayed about it and after what we went through spiritually and physically - I assumed God was trying to get my attention. Ok, He got it - so where do you want me to go God? I asked, I prayed. Why, if what you say is true, would God allow me to be de-railed like this, with Him knowing that I am truly trying to follow where He leads? Why would He do that? Why didn't He show me something at Mass instead of this new place? Sometimes, some people need to feel/see things - not to believe, but to know His Will.

I said He wouldn't lead me astray and this is where I should be..but I could of been wrong. As a Catholic it would be easy for me to tell someone in my shoes that I am wrong and it's all of the Devil.


Maggie: I understand what you mean about feelings. So basically, as Catholics we are to put all feelings aside and go with the flow of not seeing or knowing anything except what you are told? I Trust and I believe - but sometimes God allows you to FEEL too. I remember reading the Diary of St. Faustina and she FELT Jesus' presence, of course she was able to see Him at the same time. So I understand about feeling..just can't explain it.

As for why I am not in Charismatic movement, I dont know. I think they have something like that around here, but not really close to me exactly - probably an hour away. Would be worth the trip though.

Jon: Thanks for the kind words and I will do my best to follow Him.


God Bless and thanks for the replies.

[Slappo]

Super quick response:
Catholics can use feelings... as a matter of fact almost ALL of St. Ignatius' spiritual exercises are focused on understanding feelings.

Feelings must ALWAYS be a SECONDARY response though. If one does not "feel" like God is calling them to fulfill their Sunday obligation and decide not to go... because they felt it doesn't affirm it.

Can't do more right now about to start a meeting.

[Aloysius]

He didn't, necessarily, YOU interpretted Him as leading you... you must be more humble about your experiences with God and not presume that everything you think God has led you to is what God intends to lead you to... experience of God occurs through communion with His body (the Catholic Church)

you needn't believe to be caught up in the atmosphere and have your brain mimetically respond to it. you allowed yourself to be open to the idea in some way, and your brain took up the rest... it happens, it might even be a good experience the way praying in a sacred language is a good experience... in the early Church it was decided that any tongues which were nonsensical ought not to be spoken aloud in Church unless there was someone with the gift of interpretation present (I have witnessed many whose gift of interpretation seems clearly to be them stating whatever prayer or bible verse might pop into their head at the moment regardless of the noises made by the one speaking in tongues...)

the context of the passage you quoted says that the many members of the body all have different roles and recieve different gifts and that one ought to be open to the higher gifts... the list St. Paul gives includes "Apostle", and yet we are not to all seek to become bishops. To have the gift of tongues does not mean you are closer to the Holy Spirit than one who does not have the gift of tongues, it means that God the Holy Spirit has given you an extraordinary gift (extra-ordinary, not ordinary) and it should help your faith... everyone ought to be open to all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but not attempting to put themselves in emotional states or into emotional situations to try to elicit them; the idea that everyone ought to desire to recieve the extraordinary gift of tongues is as ridiculous as the idea that everyone ought to desire to be a bishop or to desire celibacy. a tool like tongues in private prayer that you yourself do not understand is a good thing for your spiritual life and may even be supernaturally inspired or it may be simply physical but in any event it has the same effect as prayer in a sacred language.... but putting them into the context of public worship becomes extremely problematic... it ought not be part of the Mass, and it ought not be done at all if there is no one who seems to have the gift of interpretation.

[Saint Therese]

I have a monthly Cathlic charismatic prayer group that I attend. it has made a tremendous differnce in my prayer life and spiritual life. I have never spoken in tongues or desired to.
I really disagree with the term "baptism of the HOly spirit". As Catholics we have already recieved the sarament of HOly Baptism, and recieved the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Confirmation. Using the term "Baptism of the Spirit", IMO is suggesting that there is perhaps something lacking in those other two sacraments, which there isn't.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688198' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:19 PM']I'm not sure what I mean really. I guess I was just wondering why the Holy Spirit doesn't have the same affect in our Church like it does at this new one. People jumping, running, crying, praising, singing..things talked about in Scriptures. Scriptures talks about praising in this form and how it is pleasing to God. I dunno, I guess I just wanted to experience this during Mass and have the Spirit poured out at that point.[/quote]

Well, you can find some rather lively Masses at certain parishes, especially African-American parishes, but just because it's lively doesn't mean the faith translates into action during the rest of the week, just as a low-key humdrum Mass doesn't mean the faith isn't very alive and well. I've seen the things you're talking about at Life in the Spirit retreats, though the intensity of those things does vary. But, this is something I've seen local Charismatic Catholics write about, if we become too focused on the external phenomenon, we can lose sight of our obligations as followers of Christ and sinful habits can sneak in pretty easily when we aren't diligent in prayer and Scripture reading. Some Christians receive the gift of tongues, but all Christians must pray.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688198' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:19 PM']Thats good to know. I wish I could find something like that around here. I have heard of the bad groups like what was mentioned above, them telling people to just babble and see what happens. I can honestly say that doesnt happen where I went too.[/quote]

Oh, I haven't seen anything that bad. The not-so-good group did some weird stuff, like pray in a circle around the tabernacle with two people touching the tabernacle so it's like a prayer circle with Jesus included... seemed goofy to me. They also taught that the Sinner's Prayer had the power to forgive sins every time you pray it. That's a direct contradiction to Church teaching, and somehow this lady didn't understand why Catholics would get bent out of shape with her.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688198' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:19 PM']Right, I read the document on this when it came out. I was more curious as to why this wasn't more of a normal thing. Why the Renewal couldn't be a thing for all the parishes, not just ones that chose to do it.[/quote]

I think it's just a matter of find a Catholic Charismatic prayer group. Trying calling your diocese or just searching the Internet to see what's in your region. I'd be surprised if you didn't find something. There's an annual Charismatic conference here in Louisville that the archbishop usually speaks at.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688198' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:19 PM']I don't know if it will. Again, I am still just trying to figure out WHY God led me here.

If you look in some past posts on the Be Not Lame board, you will see where my fiance and I (now Wife) was battling a demon, a real demon..not just spiritually - but physically. It was then that I questioned where I should be. I wasnt sure. I was confused..After attending Mass, I hate to say it was pretty blah. I hate to say it, truly I do, but I didn't feel God tug at me. He allowed a demon to taunt us, alter us, hold us down. He allowed us to hear the demon, FEEL the demon..God had a reason for this, and I wasnt sure what it was. Surely, God would of tugged at me because He knew I was searching. But He didn't.

One Sunday at this new place and BAM..like a light - my heart was tugged.

I can't explain it - which is WHY im posting here..I can't explain it.

The normal Catholic response would be - it's satan trying to divert you. But again, God wouldnt allow that if you truly believe He is in control.[/quote]

I don't keep up with the Lame Board too much, so thanks for filling me in on the earlier context of your experience. That does sound like a normal Catholic response, and rest assured that normal Catholic responses aren't always correct. Let's be honest... besides the Eucharist, Mass is usually pretty blah. We do need better liturgies, more challenging homilies, and quality song and music selection. These things are usually done so apathetically that I sometimes feel it's a personal insult to Christ. Of course, sometimes we have to question ourselves and the possibility that we've fallen into our individualistic culture of asking, "What did I get out of this?" instead of a Christ-centered, "What did I give into this?" Without the Offering, there can be no Distribution.

Assuming you are still going to Mass every week and remaining actively Catholic, it's quite possible that God has either lead you or allowed you to venture to this Pentecostal church. If you aren't going to Mass, it's much more difficult to argue that this is from God. Of course, we can only venture guesses at why, but we can affirm what we know for a fact is true: Christ wants to draw nearer to your Pentecostal friends as much as anyone, and that ultimately happens through His Church. That sounds like a rule, but I can assure you that everything is not rosy at this Pentecostal church (or anywhere, even the Catholic Church), and these feelings and experiences will someday pass away. Perhaps when that day comes, it'll become obvious that you and your wife are standing on a solid rock that they don't have.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1688233' date='Oct 28 2008, 05:33 PM']I suggest you study up on the linguistic concept of Glossolalia, as it is a very probably explanation for most of the babbling-style tongues that you find in pentecostal and charismatic circles. It is when the brain begins to apply nonsensical phonetics to its natural grammatical way of thinking... you needn't be coaxed; you simply must go to a place where this is assumed to be something that ought to occur and you might find yourself inspired into it. Why were you able to find it outside of the Catholic Church but not within it? So long as you hold to the position that the Holy Spirit is indeed present in the Catholic Church, then the only explanation is that you had to go to a place where these things were believed to occur. Otherwize, you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit is somehow less present in the Catholic Church, and that is simply an unacceptable position in my opinion. It would seem to make more sense that you went to an atmosphere where these things occured, and your brain (which is naturally mimetic and imitative)

if this helps you in your faith, I'm not going to condemn it (though I am going to kindly ask that you keep it away from me and do not go around suggesting it as a necessary sign of the Holy Spirit)... but I do not hold it to be supernatural... it would be a tool that helps you discover the mysteries of God (the way the veil of Latin over the liturgy and other prayers helps connect me to the mysteries of God). the concept that without experiences such as Glossolalia people are somehow less connected to the Holy Spirit would be absolutely offensive and likely heretical... even if your tongues were supernatural, gifts such as tongues are extraordinary and needn't be prevalent to show that we are devoted to and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Show me some tongues which display Xenoglossy and I'll believe it's supernatural; but when you simply show me the babbling style of tongues, I will point out that that is simply the way our brain can work when placed into a situation where there is expectation of tongues and you can habituate it so that your brain continues to generate such things.

"feeling" the presence of Christ does NOT mean Christ is present, it means that you are in an emotional atmosphere whilest thinking about Christ.[/quote]

[u][b]YES.[/b][/u]