Charismatic Movement And Speaking In Tongues

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I have a question on the charismatic movement. I was wondering why is it a movement and not really part of the Church?

A lot has changed on my end in the past year, one thing is I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. My life for Christ has changed so much and I felt closer to Him than any other time in the Church. Problem is, I had to go to a Pentecostal Church to get it.

Before I continue, know that I am very well Catechized Catholic and a firm believer/defender in my faith. Some here can attest to my faith and I already know some of the responses I'm going to get. So with that said, at least hear me out and understand what I am asking/saying before resorting to defensive talk.

I was confused when it first happened because I was sad that I couldn't get this in the Church. Why would Christ lead me to a Pentecostal Church (in which I converted from 12 years ago) and give me the gifts He has but not in the Catholic Church? Am I suppose to use the gifts I have now and bring them BACK to the Church?

I have never spoken in tongues in my life. I was taught by the Church that it is an old thing and not really done anymore. That couldn't be farther from the truth. It is done, it is needed, it should be desired.

In 1 Corinthians 12:31 St. Paul says: "Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts"
he continues in 14:1 and 2:
"Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit."

What I have learned about this is that speaking in tongues is the bodies reaction to recieving the Holy Spirit. It's a natural effect that happens when the Spirit comes into you, or if you already have it, the bodies way of talking to God. Satan cannot interpret what you are saying.

With that said - I am confused as to why we can't experience this in the Church if 1) We recieve the Holy Spirit during baptism and confirmation 2) We recieve Him in the Eucharist?

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 sums up what I am saying:
14 (For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive.
15
So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind.

We are urged by St. Paul to ask to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, that we may worship in tongues, because it edifies our souls - brings us closer to Jesus.

We are urged also to seek to prophesy because that edifies the Church and lifts the Church up to Jesus.

1 Cor. 14:18 - St. Paul gives thanks to God for him speaking in tongues more than anyone else.

Also I reference that Baptism's that have taken place in Scripture - Acts of the Apostles for instance - EVERYONE of them baptised spoke in Tongues - EVERYONE of them were Baptised in the name of Jesus - NOT the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...why is that? Another discussion maybe?

Ok, so I'll get to my point. Read 1 Corinthians starting at Chapter 14 for more.

My last Scripture reference is this:
14:39 - "So, (my) brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues,"

My point is - why is Christs Church lacking in the Spirit? I know you don't think it is - but if you were to see how Jesus is working in other Churchs - in particular this one Pentecostal Church. You will see what I mean.

Their praise and worship for Jesus is over-whelming! They ARE a Church of the Pentecost. They are so close to being Catholic it's awesome. They even believe in the Real Presence of Christ - even though I still beleive its not from the line it should be to be valid..doesn't matter. Their HEARTS are there, They LOVE Christ and live for Him the way each of us should.

Thats the difference I see.

Maybe thats why Jesus is flowing through this Church so much - because the Pastor is a very holy man. Strict, Orthodox and gives 100% to Christ. The people there live the life everyday. They even have 24 hour prayer - which I thought was amazing for a Protestant church. The people that are there WANT to be there. They WANT to get up and dance, sing, cry, yell, jump, pray, run and laugh. This is the way you praise Jesus. This is Biblical, it's exciting!

I am not remotely saying that the Priests in our Church do not give 100% to God or are Orthodox or Strict, etc. What I am saying is that this Pastor WANTS the Holy Spirit, he desires to do the work of Christ and shephard his church to follow Christ. I guess it still comes out wrong - not sure how else to explain it but im not bashing on Priests...

Ok, let the bashing begin. But know that I ask this because I am seeking direction. Inside I am still Catholic. But I am going where Christ led me, and as much as I don't want to admit it - it was to this Church. Whether it was to be baptised in the Holy Spirit - then leave, or stay there I am not sure.

Let me also clarify that speaking in tongues may not sound like a big thing. But when your Spirit starts praising Jesus, and you have no control over your mouth or even know what you say - adding in the most awesome closeness you feel with Jesus, not even the best drug in the world can compare to the closeness of Christ.


Your Servant In Christ,
CatholicAndFanatical

[Noel's angel]

The problem lies here. You had to go outside God's Church to feel like you had this gift of speaking in tongues. Now, my point there will be this:
Churches who are focused a lot on outward gifts, tend to arouse our emotions, they encourage things that may not even be there. I'm not saying you definitely don't have a gift, but I can't believe that the Spirit would give you this gift outside the Church. I've heard people talk about charismatic meetings and how they were actively encouraged to 'just start babbling' and see where it took them. Unfortunately, the human mind can be convinced of what isn't really there.
An example from my own life: A friend of mine hit his friend across the face, but within 15 minutes had convinced the friend that he hadn't touched him. Of course, this wasn't true, but the boy was convinced.
When you are baptised in the Church you are baptised in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit. You do not need to leave the Church to gain gifts from the Spirit.

Remember, faith isn't about always feeling close to Christ, it is about taking the rough with the smooth because you know that you are truly following His Will.

It does matter that their Eucharist isn't valid. It's probably the thing that matters most in the world because that is when we are actually closest to Christ.
The pull of the feeling you must get from this experience must be very strong, but don't forsake the Truth because of it.

I'll be praying for ya!

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]why is Christs Church lacking in the Spirit?[/quote]

The Church offers up the Mass, which is the highest form of worship there is, much superior to praying in tongues or anything else Pentecostals do ...

The Church is the largest charitable organization in the world ... hospitals, schools, evangelization ... you name it, she's got it.

So, there you have it, love of God and neighbor. I don't think any other Church comes close.

So what is your measuring stick for being full of the Spirit? Emotive worship?

You know about the Charismatic Renewal right? Obviously you do since you reference it in your title. If you prefer that style of worship, that's available to you and its Catholic. Why did you have to go to a Pentecostal community and not the CR?

[Ziggamafu]

I am a member of one of the few charismatic (that is, neo-pentecostal tradition) Catholic churches in the nation. At least one of the few that sought and received special permission to insert tongues into the Mass (within the context of the Gloria). They have special worship and praise services outside of Mass as well, which are all extremely charismatic. That said, they are - in all other regards - strictly orthodox and conservative (even "Traditionalists", though not "rad-trads"). I know. Very odd mix.

Anyway, the fruit is undeniable. They put out one of the highest numbers of new religious / priests in the nation (if not THE highest number) - certainly in the state, but I think they may be number one or two nationwide. Moreover, their vast majority of parishioners are what you might call "hard-core Catholics"; that is, extremely devout and proud of it. They have perpetual adoration and are very strict in their interpretation of liturgical AND architectural norms (again, with the exception of the charismatic stuff).

Nevertheless, I find no support for tongues (and charismatic experiences of the same ilk) in the Scriptures or Tradition of the Church. I think perhaps it may be a natural, psychological release that has its own benefits, but I remain unconvinced that it is "from God" in the sense or of the caliber of Confirmation gifts. All good things are from God, but not all good things are to be taken as religious / spiritual necessities of the same level.

One of the reasons I left Protestantism was because I immersed myself in history (cue Belloc quote); I began to cherish the idea that "if it's new, it probably isn't true; if it's true, it probably isn't new". Well..."Pentecostalism" or "charismaticism" as it is understood in Protestantism was born in the late 19th century.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Great thanks..stand by for my reply..

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]The problem lies here. You had to go outside God's Church to feel like you had this gift of speaking in tongues. Now, my point there will be this:
Churches who are focused a lot on outward gifts, tend to arouse our emotions, they encourage things that may not even be there. I'm not saying you definitely don't have a gift, but I can't believe that the Spirit would give you this gift outside the Church. I've heard people talk about charismatic meetings and how they were actively encouraged to 'just start babbling' and see where it took them. Unfortunately, the human mind can be convinced of what isn't really there.
An example from my own life: A friend of mine hit his friend across the face, but within 15 minutes had convinced the friend that he hadn't touched him. Of course, this wasn't true, but the boy was convinced.
When you are baptised in the Church you are baptised in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit. You do not need to leave the Church to gain gifts from the Spirit.

Remember, faith isn't about always feeling close to Christ, it is about taking the rough with the smooth because you know that you are truly following His Will.

It does matter that their Eucharist isn't valid. It's probably the thing that matters most in the world because that is when we are actually closest to Christ.
The pull of the feeling you must get from this experience must be very strong, but don't forsake the Truth because of it.

I'll be praying for ya![/quote]

Thank you for the reply and answers, however, I am not one to go seeking truth based on feelings alone..if you read ANY of my original post you would have read that I know its not based on feelings. I said this because that is the number 1 comeback given by us.

I didn't choose to go outside the RC to get this, I was lead. And for your assumption that I am only 'thinking' this happens is completely insane. NO one, in any way shape or form 'coaxed' me into believing I was speaking in tongues. If your 'friend' tried to convince the friend he hit, that he didn't really hit him, well I would have to wonder if your friend is a little loose on the brain cells.

I was very skepticle of it Speaking in Tongues and didn't believe it - again if you read ANY of my original post - I AM very well Catechized and know the Catholic Church very well - I have defender Her on this very forum more times than you can count. Right up there with and beside IronMonk..so don't go there. Me being skeptical I was also open minded.

[quote]When you are baptised in the Church you are baptised in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit. You do not need to leave the Church to gain gifts from the Spirit.[/quote]

I am well aware of how the Church Baptises - I was baptised and confirmed in the Church. But if you read Scriptures, and I hope you do, you will see that NO ONE was baptised in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - but they WERE Baptised in the name of Jesus.


Gah, too much to reply too - I'll come back to you.


[quote]The Church offers up the Mass, which is the highest form of worship there is, much superior to praying in tongues or anything else Pentecostals do ...

The Church is the largest charitable organization in the world ... hospitals, schools, evangelization ... you name it, she's got it.

So, there you have it, love of God and neighbor. I don't think any other Church comes close.

So what is your measuring stick for being full of the Spirit? Emotive worship?

You know about the Charismatic Renewal right? Obviously you do since you reference it in your title. If you prefer that style of worship, that's available to you and its Catholic. Why did you have to go to a Pentecostal community and not the CR?[/quote]

What does charity or anything like that have anything to do with speakin in tongues? I am in no way saying that any other church is above the Catholic Church, built upon Peter and founded by Christ. Again, take the time to read ALL of my original post before answering.

And your question on WHY did I have to go outside the RC is the exact same question I am asking all of you! Why isn't speaking in tongues important to the Church like it was to the Apostles? It doesn't make you wonder why [b]everyone[/b] that was baptised in Scriptures spoke in tongues? It doesn't make you wonder why St. Paul urges the Church to speak in tongue?



[quote]Nevertheless, I find no support for tongues (and charismatic experiences of the same ilk) in the Scriptures or Tradition of the Church. I think perhaps it may be a natural, psychological release that has its own benefits, but I remain unconvinced that it is "from God" in the sense or of the caliber of Confirmation gifts. All good things are from God, but not all good things are to be taken as religious / spiritual necessities of the same level.[/quote]

I agreed with everything up to this point...how can you, a Catholic, not find any support for speaking in tongues? Did you not read all my original post above? It has Scripture references where St. Paul URGES us to speak in Tongues, to edify ourself and prophesy to edify the Church. How can you say you find no support for tongues? Read 1 Corinthians, Acts of the Apostles and you will see the support you are missing.

It seems the 3 that responded really didn't read anything I put but just copy and pasted things from the defense Directory.

I will restate my question - as a person with sound mind and body, a Catholic - I am telling you that baptism of the Spirit is real, speaking in tongues is real and from 1 Corinthians St. Paul thinks its important as well. SO my question is WHY did I have to go outside the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to get baptised by the Spirit?

[Galloglasses' Alt]

Noel's Angel's response pretty much summed it up.

[philothea]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688148' date='Oct 28 2008, 04:01 PM']I will restate my question - as a person with sound mind and body, a Catholic - I am telling you that baptism of the Spirit is real, speaking in tongues is real and from 1 Corinthians St. Paul thinks its important as well. SO my question is WHY did I have to go outside the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to get baptised by the Spirit?[/quote]
When the Church lends its authority to something, it declares that thing to be undeniably 100% true in all cases. (Assuming the sacrament or ceremony is properly done, of course.) The eucharist is always the true presence of Jesus. Confession always forgives sins. Blessed objects are always blessed. And so on.

If I believe everything you say is true... (and I do) can you guarantee that everyone who goes through this procedure is, in fact, baptized by the Spirit? Can you guarantee everyone who speaks in tongues is legitimately doing so?

I... don't think anyone can. Even the passages you quote will go on to say different people receive different gifts, that they can be abused, and need to be interpreted. I think having a charismatic movement within the Church is the right way. Baptism in the Spirit won't appeal to everyone. It won't even happen to everyone. And it's not required for salvation.

Maybe charismatic prayer groups should be more widely available? I don't know. Unfortunately, it seems like when Catholics get ahold of some flexibility, it gets used for abuse instead.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']I have a question on the charismatic movement. I was wondering why is it a movement and not really part of the Church?[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by this... many Catholics are Charismatic, including some bishops and cardinals. And even if they aren't Charismatic themselves, bishops have no issue with speaking at Catholic Charismatic conferences. Like any movement, it's an option freely available for us... in some good ways, the Church is like a cafeteria.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']A lot has changed on my end in the past year, one thing is I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. My life for Christ has changed so much and I felt closer to Him than any other time in the Church. Problem is, I had to go to a Pentecostal Church to get it.[/quote]

That's an awesome experience. FWIW, all of my experience with Charismatics has taken place right in the bosom of Mother Church, even before I was Catholic (not all of it was the most "Catholic," but by and large it has been). And I wouldn't even call myself a Charismatic since I've never experienced any outward gifts, but I do believe (as does the Chruch) they are real and present among believers today.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']I was confused when it first happened because I was sad that I couldn't get this in the Church. Why would Christ lead me to a Pentecostal Church (in which I converted from 12 years ago) and give me the gifts He has but not in the Catholic Church? Am I suppose to use the gifts I have now and bring them BACK to the Church?[/quote]

Possibly... Pentecostals may not be Catholic, but they aren't pagans either. We can accept and affirm what is true among non-Catholic Christians while honestly rejecting what we cannot accept.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']I have never spoken in tongues in my life. I was taught by the Church that it is an old thing and not really done anymore. That couldn't be farther from the truth. It is done, it is needed, it should be desired.[/quote]

I know it's frustrating to hear this, but whoever taught you that was themselves mistaken about Church teaching. You need look no further than John Paul II for a consistent example of affirming the Charismatic Renewal within Catholicism.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']Their praise and worship for Jesus is over-whelming! They ARE a Church of the Pentecost. They are so close to being Catholic it's awesome. They even believe in the Real Presence of Christ - even though I still beleive its not from the line it should be to be valid..doesn't matter. Their HEARTS are there, They LOVE Christ and live for Him the way each of us should.[/quote]

We have to call this one out if we're going to be honest with you: even though the difference is unseen, it does matter. It is pretty awesome (and interesting) that they believe in the Real Presence. I did too, as a Protestant, because I was Lutheran. However, that doesn't mean I was receiving the Real Presence at Communion. It was only bread and wine. Of course, that also doesn't mean I wasn't receiving some grace through the act of calling to mind the Last Supper and Jesus' death and resurrection.

The great thing about being Catholic is we can affirm every good thing about Protestantism. As a Protestant, it becomes very difficult to affirm the good of Catholicism without tying yourself into a logic pretzel.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']I am not remotely saying that the Priests in our Church do not give 100% to God or are Orthodox or Strict, etc. What I am saying is that this Pastor WANTS the Holy Spirit, he desires to do the work of Christ and shephard his church to follow Christ. I guess it still comes out wrong - not sure how else to explain it but im not bashing on Priests...[/quote]

I might disagree with you about priests... St. Chrysostom probably would too. At any rate, everything you are describing is great and wonderful, but do you truly believe it is sustaining over a lifetime? Or over several generations? How about 2,000 years?

It's much like being in love (and the Charismatic gifts probably produce the same dopamine in our brains that being in love produces), but love is more than a chemical in our brains or any emotion. Love is real and substantial, a Person, and a God.

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' post='1688088' date='Oct 28 2008, 03:43 PM']Ok, let the bashing begin. But know that I ask this because I am seeking direction. Inside I am still Catholic. But I am going where Christ led me, and as much as I don't want to admit it - it was to this Church. Whether it was to be baptised in the Holy Spirit - then leave, or stay there I am not sure.[/quote]

I see no need to bash. I sometimes attend my old Baptist church, and I listen to the pastor's sermons on my iPod. In fact, worse than that, I just finished listening to Southern Baptist Seminary's President Al Mohler talk about preaching the Gospel in our post-modern culture. That was from last year's Together 4 The Gospel conference and he had some great things to say. Does that mean I agree with Mohler's Calvinist theology? Not at all! But we both believe in salvation by grace alone through Christ alone, and preaching the Gospel is a matter of concern to all Christians.

That said... I just said this in another thread about discernment: Every human being's vocation is to be strongly devoted Catholic. Your Pentecostal friends probably aren't going to eagerly start attending Mass with you, but some might. I have a friend who recently became Catholic, but remains enrolled at a Calvinist college and he's not only found many Catholics among his classmates, but a small group of non-Catholics are becoming interested in our Faith. If you remain strong in the Eucharist, Penance, and your Catholic community, there's no reason God can't use you in the same way!

Hope that is encouraging, and if nothing else, at least your lack of awarence about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is now lifted. Perhaps you should look for a Life in the Spirit retreat nearby, or even pay a visit to Franciscan University if it's feasible.

Edited October 28, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Ziggamafu]

None of the scriptures you cited are adequate proof-texts for tongues [i]as understood by modern Pentecostalism.[/i] They all could be understood as speaking in foreign languages. Think of how absurd it would be for the Holy Spirit - who is not the author of confusion - to descend and thereby bring a repeat of Babel! Instead, what do we find at Pentecost? A reversal of Babel, where the gift of tongues reunites languages and renews universal comprehension. The "tongues" of modern (neo) "Pentecostalism" neither reunite language, nor do they grant universal comprehension. Instead, they are very Gnostic; strictly spiritual and available only to the "enlightened" by private (I'm tempted to say "secret") mystical experience. [i]They are a ratification and renewal of Babel[/i], which is the very opposite of the mission of the Holy Spirit. That fact alone should be alarming.

Moreover, we see absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Fathers of the Church interpreted the Scriptures that you cite in a way that is indicative of the modern (read: "new") interpretation. It would not at all shock me if Satan uses the manifestation of neo-tongues (that is, the modern interpretation of the gift of tongues) as a further means to confuse and divide the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. As said in other posts, it focuses on emotion and the inward spirit rather than on the self-sacrificial nature of true Catholic worship.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]When the Church lends its authority to something, it declares that thing to be undeniably 100% true in all cases. (Assuming the sacrament or ceremony is properly done, of course.) The eucharist is always the true presence of Jesus. Confession always forgives sins. Blessed objects are always blessed. And so on.

If I believe everything you say is true... (and I do) can you guarantee that everyone who goes through this procedure is, in fact, baptized by the Spirit? Can you guarantee everyone who speaks in tongues is legitimately doing so?

I... don't think anyone can. Even the passages you quote will go on to say different people receive different gifts, that they can be abused, and need to be interpreted. I think having a charismatic movement within the Church is the right way. Baptism in the Spirit won't appeal to everyone. It won't even happen to everyone. And it's not required for salvation.

Maybe charismatic prayer groups should be more widely available? I don't know. Unfortunately, it seems like when Catholics get ahold of some flexibility, it gets used for abuse instead.[/quote]

Excellent response, I appreciate this. I agree with what you are saying and to answer your question; No I cannot say for certain that 100% of the people that I have witnessed speaking in tongues are doing it genuinely. However, I cannot sit and think about their walk with Christ - my walk however, I can say 100% that I would never put something like this on or make it up. I was eager to be baptised in the Spirit but not to the point where I would just start jabbering and hoping something would happen. I actualy tried to fight the feelings at first. Self conscience and wondering what was happening. But the moment I raised my hands in the air and cried out Halelujah Jesus, I praise you and give myself to you, etc...it happened. It wasn't just an emotional thing, but physical as well. In no way could someone doubt it was happening to them.

I agree the passages in Corinthians do go on to say different people with get different gifts, but the one thing it stresses is that [b]everyone[/b] is to seek to speak in tongues. The reason, I think, St. Paul says this is [b]not[/b] because of salvation - but because it brings us closer to Christ. We praise Him in a language of no other. On top of that it edifies your soul. The word "edify" means to "build up" or "restore" - like a refreshing of the soul. We all need a spiritual charge. All of us at times feel spiritually drained. One of God's ways to charge your spirit is through speaking in tongues.

I do want to point out, thanks for saying this philothea, it is not required for salvation, in no way do I want to say that.

But wait..I was thinking as I was typing...would it be important for salvation?

Here is the way I am thinking of it:

When reading Acts and Corinthians (Mainly Acts) You see certain steps take place during a baptism:

1) The person is baptised and forgiven of sins (obviously)
2) Important: The Apostles came and laid hands on these people and they were Baptised in the Spirit - ALL of them spoke in tongues.

My reasoning for them speaking in tongues every time is because speaking in tongues is the natural way for our souls to praise Jesus. I venture to say you cannot have one without the other. How is my soul NOT going to cry out in praise if the Holy Spirit is coming on me? How can I think there can be one without the other when Scriptures shows [b]everyone[/b] speaking in tongues once the hands were laid upon them.

So, back to the salvation thing. Lets say for this argument that one would need the Holy Spirit in them to be saved, or have salvation. The only way this could happen is to be Baptised by the Spirit - by laying on hands. If the [b]normal[/b] reaction to this laying on hands is to speak in tongues - then can we say we truly have the Holy Spirit in us if our souls havent cried praises in the form of tongues?


Philothea, im just trying to have a discussion, I sure hope I didn't come off in the wrong way. All these things I am thinking and trying to find the right answers too. Discussing this allows me to think and pray over.

Thank you for the reply.

[Lilllabettt]

You asked: Why is Christ's Church lacking in Spirit?

I asked: What is your measuring stick for determining Spirit full-ness?

My measuring stick is charity. Where charity is, there is God. Based on my measuring stick, the Catholic Church is full of the Spirit. Nobody else comes close.

What is your measuring stick?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Wow Lousiville, you this the nail on the head with this one..Thank you very much for the thoughtful and uplifting reply.

Geesh, where to start..ok


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1688188' date='Oct 28 2008, 05:53 PM']Not sure what you mean by this... many Catholics are Charismatic, including some bishops and cardinals. And even if they aren't Charismatic themselves, bishops have no issue with speaking at Catholic Charismatic conferences. Like any movement, it's an option freely available for us... in some good ways, the Church is like a cafeteria. [/quote]

I'm not sure what I mean really. I guess I was just wondering why the Holy Spirit doesn't have the same affect in our Church like it does at this new one. People jumping, running, crying, praising, singing..things talked about in Scriptures. Scriptures talks about praising in this form and how it is pleasing to God. I dunno, I guess I just wanted to experience this during Mass and have the Spirit poured out at that point.


[quote]That's an awesome experience. FWIW, all of my experience with Charismatics has taken place right in the bosom of Mother Church, even before I was Catholic (not all of it was the most "Catholic," but by and large it has been). And I wouldn't even call myself a Charismatic since I've never experienced any outward gifts, but I do believe (as does the Chruch) they are real and present among believers today.[/quote]

Thats good to know. I wish I could find something like that around here. I have heard of the bad groups like what was mentioned above, them telling people to just babble and see what happens. I can honestly say that doesnt happen where I went too.


[quote]Possibly... Pentecostals may not be Catholic, but they aren't pagans either. We can accept and affirm what is true among non-Catholic Christians while honestly rejecting what we cannot accept.[/quote]

Amen to that.

[quote]I know it's frustrating to hear this, but whoever taught you that was themselves mistaken about Church teaching. You need look no further than John Paul II for a consistent example of affirming the Charismatic Renewal within Catholicism.[/quote]

Right, I read the document on this when it came out. I was more curious as to why this wasn't more of a normal thing. Why the Renewal couldn't be a thing for all the parishes, not just ones that chose to do it.

[quote]We have to call this one out if we're going to be honest with you: even though the difference is unseen, it does matter. It is pretty awesome (and interesting) that they believe in the Real Presence. I did too, as a Protestant, because I was Lutheran. However, that doesn't mean I was receiving the Real Presence at Communion. It was only bread and wine. Of course, that also doesn't mean I wasn't receiving some grace through the act of calling to mind the Last Supper and Jesus' death and resurrection.[/quote]

Amen to this one as well. For the record, I haven't and WON'T participate in their communion. I still hold my Catholic Beliefs, especially, ESPECIALLY the Eucharist! Thats where I draw my sword.

[quote]The great thing about being Catholic is we can affirm every good thing about Protestantism. As a Protestant, it becomes very difficult to affirm the good of Catholicism without tying yourself into a logic pretzel. [/quote]

No doubt, it is easy to accept a lot of their beliefs because it came from us..sure isn't the other way around.

[quote]I might disagree with you about priests... St. Chrysostom probably would too. At any rate, everything you are describing is great and wonderful, but do you truly believe it is sustaining over a lifetime? Or over several generations? How about 2,000 years?[/quote]

I don't know if it will. Again, I am still just trying to figure out WHY God led me here.

If you look in some past posts on the Be Not Lame board, you will see where my fiance and I (now Wife) was battling a demon, a real demon..not just spiritually - but physically. It was then that I questioned where I should be. I wasnt sure. I was confused..After attending Mass, I hate to say it was pretty blah. I hate to say it, truly I do, but I didn't feel God tug at me. He allowed a demon to taunt us, alter us, hold us down. He allowed us to hear the demon, FEEL the demon..God had a reason for this, and I wasnt sure what it was. Surely, God would of tugged at me because He knew I was searching. But He didn't.

One Sunday at this new place and BAM..like a light - my heart was tugged.

I can't explain it - which is WHY im posting here..I can't explain it.

The normal Catholic response would be - it's satan trying to divert you. But again, God wouldnt allow that if you truly believe He is in control.

I dunno. Im just trying to make sense of it.


[quote]I see no need to bash. I sometimes attend my old Baptist church, and I listen to the pastor's sermons on my iPod. In fact, worse than that, I just finished listening to Southern Baptist Seminary's President Al Mohler talk about preaching the Gospel in our post-modern culture. That was from last year's Together 4 The Gospel conference and he had some great things to say. Does that mean I agree with Mohler's Calvinist theology? Not at all! But we both believe in salvation by grace alone through Christ alone, and preaching the Gospel is a matter of concern to all Christians.

That said... I just said this in another thread about discernment: Every human being's vocation is to be strongly devoted Catholic. Your Pentecostal friends probably aren't going to eagerly start attending Mass with you, but some might. I have a friend who recently became Catholic, but remains enrolled at a Calvinist college and he's not only found many Catholics among his classmates, but a small group of non-Catholics are becoming interested in our Faith. If you remain strong in the Eucharist, Penance, and your Catholic community, there's no reason God can't use you in the same way!

Hope that is encouraging, and if nothing else, at least your lack of awarence about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is now lifted. Perhaps you should look for a Life in the Spirit retreat nearby, or even pay a visit to Franciscan University if it's feasible.[/quote]

It was way encouraging and I appreciate you going through things and talking about it. Like I told Pholiphea, I want to discuss this. I use this as a way to discern.

Thanks again. God bless.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1688189' date='Oct 28 2008, 05:54 PM']None of the scriptures you cited are adequate proof-texts for tongues [i]as understood by modern Pentecostalism.[/i] They all could be understood as speaking in foreign languages.[/quote]

Hmm..well, I assume you're Catholic and believe 100% of what Scriptures teaches. So with this in mind I will once again post the exact Scripture where St. Paul talks about speaking in tongues is a language that speaks to God only and edifies our souls.


1 Corinthians 14:2 - "For one who speaks in a tongue [b]does not speak to human beings but to God[/b], for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit."

"(For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit 6 is at prayer but my mind is unproductive."


I can't be too mad at ya for saying this though really..when I defended this part of teaching I often said that the tongues were because they were given different languages to go across the world to proclaim the news.

I still use that defense for the Gifts that were given at Pentecost - however, what St. Paul talks about is not just at Pentecost but something we ALL need to do and it's not different languages like French, German, Chinease - but a language that only God knows and when we do it our [b]Soul[/b] says praises to God in a way that only God understands.

Hope this makes more sense.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1688197' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:12 PM']You asked: Why is Christ's Church lacking in Spirit?

I asked: What is your measuring stick for determining Spirit full-ness?

My measuring stick is charity. Where charity is, there is God. Based on my measuring stick, the Catholic Church is full of the Spirit. Nobody else comes close.

What is your measuring stick?[/quote]


I understand what you are saying now and I don't have an answer. I don't measure it because I am still Catholic.

I am saying the experience I have at this new place is something that I wanted to experience as a Catholic. I didn't want to go to this new place at all. I went there because I felt called too and that is where these questions come from.

Like I don't agree with a few things from this new Church, a lot of the teachings we already believed, but I go there because I like to feel the pressence of Christ. I like praising him, I like singing, dancing and lifting my hands in the air and worshipping Him. To me, it has nothing to do with the teachings of this Church - I was led here and im trying to figure out my place.

Edited October 28, 2008 by CatholicAndFanatical