My Fall From Grace

[Hassan]

[quote name='scardella' post='1688211' date='Oct 28 2008, 04:48 PM']Hassan,

I'm quite scatterbrained at the moment, so feel free to take this all with a grain of salt...

Actually the author that comes to mind at the moment is GK Chesterton. (his [url="http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16769"]Orthodoxy[/url] specifically) It sounds like you've done a lot of thinking. And thinking and thinking and thinking... And reading too. I know when I get into a position where I'm only absorbed in my own world of thought and reading, it has very bad effects, particularly emotionally. It becomes like a black hole where I need someone else to come in and pull me out.

That is not referring only to man and woman as man and wife. It also refers to the fact that man is incomplete when he becomes cut off from the rest of the world. We are social creatures, even if we tend to be anti-social. I think that may be part of your attraction to Phatmass. When you cut yourself off, your world shrinks. Continuing that, your world will become your mind, and the difference between reality and imagination will shrink until you cannot tell the difference. The reason creativity and madness are linked is because the mind unchecked is madness. When I read the book [i]Heart of Darkness[/i], it chilled me to the bone. I could see that madness within, and I was scared.

Catholicism (and the Charismatic movement) has been the antidote to that madness. It draws me out of my comfort zone, and has for the past ten years. I am much the better man for it.

I don't have a lot of time left, but I hope I don't sound too preachy or scatterbrained. Suffice it to say, I want to leave one parting thought. Man is not merely a mind. He is a mind/body unity, and, though you may prefer one side to the other, both must be satisfied in man's search for meaning.

God bless and good evening.[/quote]


Thank you, I actually really enjoyed it and it was hardly scatterbrained

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1687114' date='Oct 27 2008, 12:25 AM']Can I ask what your well thought out reasons are?[/quote]

So I've spent well over a week or so contemplating your request but been too busy (or maybe distracted and lazy) to respond fully -- but I'll touch on a few things I came to terms with at the time when I was severely depressed and in an existential crisis of sorts. The thing is, my personal situation at the time, the questions I asked then and my own overall timeline might not be the same as yours, so I don't know how helpful or relevant this is. I was raised Catholic, but my family was largely just nominally Catholic and went through the motions, with the exception of my mother, who was very committed. But she didn't really talk about religion a lot, she preferred quietly going her own way. Generally -- religion didn't exactly have a huge role in my family like it does others.

And as is, I'm not elaborating on my personal relationship with God or aspects of my spiritual growth. That was a factor as well but I don't think that's what you were really asking about. So I speak this in more of a, I dunno, the other reasons not explicitly spiritual in a simple way in plain English. I'm not referencing great thinkers and spelling it out like Plato or Augustine would, so it might not be all that impressive. But seriously, it's just as well I not contribute to your burnout.

I think despite my crisis, I always had a belief in God and some kind of relationship with him, though it wasn't always a good or strong one. But I guess despite the books I have read or will read in the future -- what always struck me, in a simple way, even though at times God seemed like a distant being -- was that the concept of an almighty God was there and loved us, and was taking the form of flesh and bones and walking among us and even laying down his life was just such a personal and profound concept. A king walking amongst his subjects. I know throughout history there have been men that have claimed godhood -- but they usually did this in a quest to gain power and wealth. Whereas Jesus, in proclaiming his divinity, he knew it would cost him his life. He was an advocate of humility, service, and selfless love, loving your enemies, and turning the other cheek. To me the profoundness of his message and how much it would transform the world if everyone lived it, this was what really helped mold my convictions. He had truly revolutionary concepts that we even have a hard time getting our heads around it today.

(Years later our church had a theology discussion group on a book by Gerhard Lohfink's "Does God Need the Church" that gave me some interesting insight on the Israelites and their whole concept of God and a covenant with a chosen people in the first place and the innovativeness of this -- but that was years later...)

From the standpoint as far as comparisons with mainstream Christianity and many discussions with fellow Christians (don't even get me started with some of the stuff my baptist friend would try to tell me and ensuing arguments) -- I appreciated the fact that Catholics don't feel the need to go to war with science and quibble about literal interpretations of the Bible the same way fundamentalists do. Catholics don't worry about things like ufo's and dinosaurs and how their existence would have implications as far as their sole source of authority of the bible in a fully literal form is concerned. Sure there was that whole Galileo thing, but generally I view all that as a time when the people were trying to come to grips with advancing technology, science's relationship with religion and both of their roles in their service to man.

As far as morality and ethics -- I am decidedly not a relativist. I appreciated the fact that the church doesn't ascribe to relativism to win a popularity contest, even among it's own members. A lot of people view her teachings as archaic. I view them as common sense and the concept of natural law really appealed to me, as did the concept of conscience and reasoning versus emotions and feelings. It seemed to me that the Church as one of world's oldest institutions and contributors to Western civilization was visible and attempted to govern and navigate the world and address many moral issues not explicitly addressed in the bible in a way that was unique.

When Benedict was elected Pope, James Lileks wrote a blog entry that had me laughing to the point of tears. He's not a Catholic, but he stated a lot of things in the entry that I think sum up how I felt somewhere along the way:

[quote]Note: every era is the modern era to the people who inhabit it; a “modern” pope in 1937 would have announced that godless collectivism was the wave of the future, and ridden the trains to Auschwitz standing on top, holding gilded reins, whooping like Slim Pickens. The defining quality of 20th century modernity is impatience, I think – the nervous, irritated, aggravated impulse to get on with the new now, and be done with those old tiresome constraints. We’re still in that 20th century dynamic, I think, and we will be held to it until something shocks us to our core. Say what you will about Benedict v.16, but he wants there to be a core to which we can be shocked. And I prefer that to a tepid slurry of happy-clappy relativism that leads to animists consecrating geodes beneath the dome of St. Peter's.[/quote]

There's just a lot of things about Catholic thought that I discovered, and it really appealed to me then and has ever since. Aside from the many contributions and integral role the Church has played in Western civilization, there's a richness, depth and balance to it that I want to continue to explore. I haven't really done much heavy reading in a while since Benedict was elected. I read a lot of his stuff after that. I've been thinking of doing some reading in the future. Maybe G.K. Chesterton or something.

But for now I'm checking out books on gardening and mulching at the library instead.

[Guest Jon]

[color="#000080"]Hassan,

Oh my gosh, I shouldn't stay away so long - too much to catch up on. (I'm involved with another Christian forum, too)

Hasson, your post was long and then I tried to skim as many as I could -please, forgive me if I repeat what someone may have said or for any misinterpretations ---it was so much to absorb and retain for my old brain. :) I'm not even sure if you'd still be interested after all this time in anything I'd have to say.

I noticed many caring people suggested you read this and that. You've read quit a bit already.

You say you have no faith - paraphrase - yet, if you were my child, friend, spouse and said that to me -I'd have to laugh ---bec for someone with no faith ---you certainly seem obsessed with me and trying to have faith and trying to get to know me. You pay more attention and give me more of your time and thoughts than anyone else!! You have a good, good heart. :)

I would be very pleased with your effort. Then I would probably say -come here - sit with me - this is how you will really get to know me ---forget all the books and all the pastors and preists and all the talking to me and asking of me and struggling to be part of a particular church and follow it's rules. Come here, friend, son, lover and sit next to me - be still and quiet your thoughts and questions and anxieties and emotions --- just sit with me and be still.

This is how you will get closer to me and then there will be no need for faith - you will feel and know me.

I have to run - I could go on and on - sorry this is so short.
God Bless,
Jon[/color]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686349' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:06 PM']I am writing this by request of some individuals whom I used to be in contact with why wished that I would explain why I am no longer religious. Anyone is welcome to read it and offer any advice but I thought I’d explain its origin.

...

So there you go. I have tried to be as honest as possible. Sorry for it being a bit scattered.[/quote]

I read parts of it... sounds like you're motivated by fear... fear that Catholicism is wrong... fear of receiving the Eucharist in mortal sin... fear for your grandfather's soul... I don't think you've ever loved God. Maybe you should find out what you do love.

Edited November 11, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Guest Jon]

[color="#000080"]Hassan,

WHAT? You're only 19 years old - I felt you were a young man, but 19?

Oh brother - do you ever have a bright future in front of you. With a heart like yours -you're going far and will effect many people.

Heart? You don't feel your heart much? Practice opening it - little step by little step - one day - one [i]full[/i] day -----walk in your less fortunate areas ---bring $25 in ones ----look at their poverty----lack of smiles ---tuck ones into pay phones ----put ones in their laundromats to be found---
hand out ones to the panhandlers ----all day -just give, give, give. See and imagine the effect you're having on the ones that think no one cares for them --that 'never get a break'.

Show them a little of God's love --that you don't even feel ---be a conduit --ask the Lord to come pass thru you as you give.

Then one day, collect warm clothing --or buy some at the thrift stores ---gloves are the best! ---hand them out to the street people. Look at their toothless smiles. Then just learn how to "feel".

Inch by inch ---let God draw you into Him. It is a direct, personal, intimate relationship God wants with you more than you want with Him. When you have that -everything else will fall into place.

I hope it was ok to give you my suggestions.

God bless,
Jon[/color]

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1699423' date='Nov 11 2008, 10:05 AM']I read parts of it... sounds like you're motivated by fear... fear that Catholicism is wrong... fear of receiving the Eucharist in mortal sin... fear for your grandfather's soul... I don't think you've ever loved God. Maybe you should find out what you do love.[/quote]

I don't think that's quite right.

This peom puts it absolutly perfectly

THE DOUBTER'S PRAYER

by: Anne Bronte (1820-1849)

TERNAL Power, of earth and air!
Unseen, yet seen in all around,
Remote, but dwelling everywhere,
Though silent, heard in every sound;

If e'er thine ear in mercy bent,
When wretched mortals cried to Thee,
And if, indeed, Thy Son was sent,
To save lost sinners such as me:

Then hear me now, while kneeling here,
I lift to thee my heart and eye,
And all my soul ascends in prayer,
OH, GIVE ME--GIVE ME FAITH! I cry.

Without some glimmering in my heart,
I could not raise this fervent prayer;
But, oh! a stronger light impart,
And in Thy mercy fix it there.

While Faith is with me, I am blest;
It turns my darkest night to day;
But while I clasp it to my breast,
I often feel it slide away.

Then, cold and dark, my spirit sinks,
To see my light of life depart;
And every fiend of Hell, methinks,
Enjoys the anguish of my heart.

What shall I do, if all my love,
My hopes, my toil, are cast away,
And if there be no God above,
To hear and bless me when I pray?

If this be vain delusion all,
If death be an eternal sleep,
And none can hear my secret call,
Or see the silent tears I weep!

Oh, help me, God! For thou alone
Canst my distracted soul relieve;
Forsake it not: it is thine own,
Though weak, yet longing to believe.

Oh, drive these cruel doubts away;
And make me know, that Thou art God!
A faith, that shines by night and day,
Will lighten every earthly load.

If I believe that Jesus died,
And waking, rose to reign above;
Then surely Sorrow, Sin, and Pride,
Must yield to Peace, and Hope, and Love.

And all the blessed words He said
Will strength and holy joy impart:
A shield of safety o'er my head,
A spring of comfort in my heart

[thessalonian]

Have you read "A Case for Faith" by Lee Stroebel? I'm about 1/4 of the way through it and so far it is very good (though he's not Catholic). He does interveiw Peter Kreeft, a Catholic philosopher who gives some excellent answers regarding good and evil and why there is suffering in the world.

Edited November 11, 2008 by thessalonian

[Hassan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1699451' date='Nov 11 2008, 11:27 AM']Have you read "A Case for Faith" by Lee Stroebel? I'm about 1/4 of the way through it and so far it is very good (though he's not Catholic). He does interveiw Peter Kreeft, a Catholic philosopher who gives some excellent answers regarding good and evil and why there is suffering in the world.[/quote]


Yes, I have read three books by Lee Strobel.

thank you though: )

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1699444' date='Nov 11 2008, 11:01 AM']I don't think that's quite right.

This peom puts it absolutly perfectly

THE DOUBTER'S PRAYER[/quote]

Well, you haven't convinced me... but I think the issue of your doubt (and those who identify with the ever-present doubt of Anne Bronte's prayer) would eventually come down to how we understand and define love. Benedict XVI didn't title his first encyclical "God is Love" because it sounds nice; it's a truth fundamental to Christianity and the meaning of our lives. So, what is it? You obviously enjoy diving into the abstract and untouchable philosophical side of love, but you've surely encountered love in it's substantial form, as something you can objectively identify without any doubt in your mind or anyone else's. I think this is the side of love you must encounter from God in order to gain confidence in Him.

[Apotheoun]

From an Eastern Christian perspective there has never been a "fall from grace" but only a failure to ever rise up to God within grace.

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1699470' date='Nov 11 2008, 12:30 PM']Well, you haven't convinced me... but I think the issue of your doubt (and those who identify with the ever-present doubt of Anne Bronte's prayer) would eventually come down to how we understand and define love. Benedict XVI didn't title his first encyclical "God is Love" because it sounds nice; it's a truth fundamental to Christianity and the meaning of our lives. So, what is it? You obviously enjoy diving into the abstract and untouchable philosophical side of love, but you've surely encountered love in it's substantial form, as something you can objectively identify without any doubt in your mind or anyone else's. I think this is the side of love you must encounter from God in order to gain confidence in Him.[/quote]

I don't know. I'm not trying to be difficult but while in "real life" I'm liked by many people (suprise!) and have plenty of diverse friends I've never really been "close" to anyone, neither friends nor family.

I guess my parents love for me?

but that's more abstract, I do love them and care for them but it's never been a real "loveing" relationship in the sense of that trust. I've never really trusted anyone in the true sense of the word. I guess for me love is more like empathy.

Perhapse that has something to do with it.

I would suspect it does.

I think trust probably has a lot to do with it, because I mean it. I can't think of a single human being I've ever "put my trust into", confided in etc. I mean its odd, because friends trust me, and I don't *try* to not trust them, but I just don't. I don't even really trust my family in the sense of being able to confide in them etc. No one.

So given that it would not be difficult to see why "trusting God", which seems like a really important part of love, would be quite difficult.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Hassan

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1699481' date='Nov 11 2008, 12:59 PM']From an Eastern Christian perspective there has never been a "fall from grace" but only a failure to ever rise up to God within grace.[/quote]

hm.

that's actually really interesting.

I think I've heard that before. When I went to Greece I visited/prayed in some Orthodox Cathedrals and bought some icons. I always intended, upon ariving back in the states, to study eastern Christian Theology but never got around to it

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1699378' date='Nov 11 2008, 05:58 AM']So I've spent well over a week or so contemplating your request but been too busy (or maybe distracted and lazy) to respond fully -- but I'll touch on a few things I came to terms with at the time when I was severely depressed and in an existential crisis of sorts. The thing is, my personal situation at the time, the questions I asked then and my own overall timeline might not be the same as yours, so I don't know how helpful or relevant this is. I was raised Catholic, but my family was largely just nominally Catholic and went through the motions, with the exception of my mother, who was very committed. But she didn't really talk about religion a lot, she preferred quietly going her own way. Generally -- religion didn't exactly have a huge role in my family like it does others.

And as is, I'm not elaborating on my personal relationship with God or aspects of my spiritual growth. That was a factor as well but I don't think that's what you were really asking about. So I speak this in more of a, I dunno, the other reasons not explicitly spiritual in a simple way in plain English. I'm not referencing great thinkers and spelling it out like Plato or Augustine would, so it might not be all that impressive. But seriously, it's just as well I not contribute to your burnout.

I think despite my crisis, I always had a belief in God and some kind of relationship with him, though it wasn't always a good or strong one. But I guess despite the books I have read or will read in the future -- what always struck me, in a simple way, even though at times God seemed like a distant being -- was that the concept of an almighty God was there and loved us, and was taking the form of flesh and bones and walking among us and even laying down his life was just such a personal and profound concept. A king walking amongst his subjects. I know throughout history there have been men that have claimed godhood -- but they usually did this in a quest to gain power and wealth. Whereas Jesus, in proclaiming his divinity, he knew it would cost him his life. He was an advocate of humility, service, and selfless love, loving your enemies, and turning the other cheek. To me the profoundness of his message and how much it would transform the world if everyone lived it, this was what really helped mold my convictions. He had truly revolutionary concepts that we even have a hard time getting our heads around it today.

(Years later our church had a theology discussion group on a book by Gerhard Lohfink's "Does God Need the Church" that gave me some interesting insight on the Israelites and their whole concept of God and a covenant with a chosen people in the first place and the innovativeness of this -- but that was years later...)

From the standpoint as far as comparisons with mainstream Christianity and many discussions with fellow Christians (don't even get me started with some of the stuff my baptist friend would try to tell me and ensuing arguments) -- I appreciated the fact that Catholics don't feel the need to go to war with science and quibble about literal interpretations of the Bible the same way fundamentalists do. Catholics don't worry about things like ufo's and dinosaurs and how their existence would have implications as far as their sole source of authority of the bible in a fully literal form is concerned. Sure there was that whole Galileo thing, but generally I view all that as a time when the people were trying to come to grips with advancing technology, science's relationship with religion and both of their roles in their service to man.

As far as morality and ethics -- I am decidedly not a relativist. I appreciated the fact that the church doesn't ascribe to relativism to win a popularity contest, even among it's own members. A lot of people view her teachings as archaic. I view them as common sense and the concept of natural law really appealed to me, as did the concept of conscience and reasoning versus emotions and feelings. It seemed to me that the Church as one of world's oldest institutions and contributors to Western civilization was visible and attempted to govern and navigate the world and address many moral issues not explicitly addressed in the bible in a way that was unique.

When Benedict was elected Pope, James Lileks wrote a blog entry that had me laughing to the point of tears. He's not a Catholic, but he stated a lot of things in the entry that I think sum up how I felt somewhere along the way:



There's just a lot of things about Catholic thought that I discovered, and it really appealed to me then and has ever since. Aside from the many contributions and integral role the Church has played in Western civilization, there's a richness, depth and balance to it that I want to continue to explore. I haven't really done much heavy reading in a while since Benedict was elected. I read a lot of his stuff after that. I've been thinking of doing some reading in the future. Maybe G.K. Chesterton or something.

But for now I'm checking out books on gardening and mulching at the library instead. [/quote]


thank you for writting this: )

I just wanted to let you know I read it, I will try to respond sometime

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1699378' date='Nov 11 2008, 05:58 AM']So I've spent well over a week or so contemplating your request but been too busy (or maybe distracted and lazy) to respond fully -- but I'll touch on a few things I came to terms with at the time when I was severely depressed and in an existential crisis of sorts. The thing is, my personal situation at the time, the questions I asked then and my own overall timeline might not be the same as yours, so I don't know how helpful or relevant this is. I was raised Catholic, but my family was largely just nominally Catholic and went through the motions, with the exception of my mother, who was very committed. But she didn't really talk about religion a lot, she preferred quietly going her own way. Generally -- religion didn't exactly have a huge role in my family like it does others.

And as is, I'm not elaborating on my personal relationship with God or aspects of my spiritual growth. That was a factor as well but I don't think that's what you were really asking about. So I speak this in more of a, I dunno, the other reasons not explicitly spiritual in a simple way in plain English. I'm not referencing great thinkers and spelling it out like Plato or Augustine would, so it might not be all that impressive. But seriously, it's just as well I not contribute to your burnout.

I think despite my crisis, I always had a belief in God and some kind of relationship with him, though it wasn't always a good or strong one. But I guess despite the books I have read or will read in the future -- what always struck me, in a simple way, even though at times God seemed like a distant being -- was that the concept of an almighty God was there and loved us, and was taking the form of flesh and bones and walking among us and even laying down his life was just such a personal and profound concept. A king walking amongst his subjects. I know throughout history there have been men that have claimed godhood -- but they usually did this in a quest to gain power and wealth. Whereas Jesus, in proclaiming his divinity, he knew it would cost him his life. He was an advocate of humility, service, and selfless love, loving your enemies, and turning the other cheek. To me the profoundness of his message and how much it would transform the world if everyone lived it, this was what really helped mold my convictions. He had truly revolutionary concepts that we even have a hard time getting our heads around it today.

(Years later our church had a theology discussion group on a book by Gerhard Lohfink's "Does God Need the Church" that gave me some interesting insight on the Israelites and their whole concept of God and a covenant with a chosen people in the first place and the innovativeness of this -- but that was years later...)

From the standpoint as far as comparisons with mainstream Christianity and many discussions with fellow Christians (don't even get me started with some of the stuff my baptist friend would try to tell me and ensuing arguments) -- I appreciated the fact that Catholics don't feel the need to go to war with science and quibble about literal interpretations of the Bible the same way fundamentalists do. Catholics don't worry about things like ufo's and dinosaurs and how their existence would have implications as far as their sole source of authority of the bible in a fully literal form is concerned. Sure there was that whole Galileo thing, but generally I view all that as a time when the people were trying to come to grips with advancing technology, science's relationship with religion and both of their roles in their service to man.

As far as morality and ethics -- I am decidedly not a relativist. I appreciated the fact that the church doesn't ascribe to relativism to win a popularity contest, even among it's own members. A lot of people view her teachings as archaic. I view them as common sense and the concept of natural law really appealed to me, as did the concept of conscience and reasoning versus emotions and feelings. It seemed to me that the Church as one of world's oldest institutions and contributors to Western civilization was visible and attempted to govern and navigate the world and address many moral issues not explicitly addressed in the bible in a way that was unique.

When Benedict was elected Pope, James Lileks wrote a blog entry that had me laughing to the point of tears. He's not a Catholic, but he stated a lot of things in the entry that I think sum up how I felt somewhere along the way:



There's just a lot of things about Catholic thought that I discovered, and it really appealed to me then and has ever since. Aside from the many contributions and integral role the Church has played in Western civilization, there's a richness, depth and balance to it that I want to continue to explore. I haven't really done much heavy reading in a while since Benedict was elected. I read a lot of his stuff after that. I've been thinking of doing some reading in the future. Maybe G.K. Chesterton or something.

But for now I'm checking out books on gardening and mulching at the library instead. [/quote]


thank you for writting this: )

I just wanted to let you know I read it, I will try to respond sometime

[Guest Jon]

[color="#000080"]Hassan,

Somewhere here you said something about "writing a paper" ? Which suggests maybe you're a student? Would you check on a consistent spelling mistake you're making -if you don't it will follow you forever ---it's the "ing" after "e" thing ---as in "loving, not loveing "---that's one example I remember -but I remember there were some others and I thought they were just typos.

I pretty much am only letting you know bec as a student in college -it will be a big deal on a paper. There are many grammatical mistakes I make bec I was daydreaming in 7th grade that day. HA!

Take care,[/color]
Jon