My Fall From Grace

[Hassan]

Just to be clear, I don't consider my experiences "unique" or anything. I just put them up because some people asked me to.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1686660' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:02 PM']I'm curious, Hassan. Would you really want to have faith? If so, why?[/quote]

Couldn't the same be asked of you?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686664' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:35 PM']ah!

That's the interesting question isin't it?

What I am most interested in is what is actually true, so if I believed Catholicism, or any religion, were true my personal wants would not be an issue.

Beyond that it is a mixed bag. There are some good things about religion. It gives you a sense of meaning and comfort, that there is some "larger plan" and clear cut moral answers.

Plus it can be nice to give a quick prayer before an exam you blew off

But there are bad things as well. As Pascal said

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

There are some nice things about being religious. Not haveing to try and fit everything you read into your faith, not haveing to always ask two questions about every argument, First is it a sound argment, second can I accecpt it (like does it fit with the faith).

Its a mixed bag.[/quote]

It is interesting, because you have a "knowledge" of faith, you know what it is, and you recognize it, could it be eluding you because you have no given yourself over to it? In other words, asking the Big questions but realizing that for everything there is not an answer?

I hate saying it like that because then it sounds like a cop-out, but think of it this way.

Say you got to a small cave, but had a big backpack on and you could not fit the backpack and yourself in the cave but only yourself, would you leave the pack behind or continue to try to fit both in the cave? Sometimes it is necessary to let go of certain things in order to move forward. I am not saying you abandon reason but you make concession enough so that you can fit in into the "narrow cave."

Perhaps, a bad analogy, but the point is faith, by its very nature, demands sacrifice. And, if you respond that you don't want to make the sacrifice then you might ask why you are willing to make sacrifices elsewhere but not when it comes to faith.

For example, when you fall in love (Semalsia loves this example) there are certain things that you have to be willing to let go of, or come to an agreement on, if you don't, the relationship suffers as a result.

I have been thinking about this, and you seemed to have affirmed it, all too often we look at God as though He is a far distant creature, rather than personal, someone who came to experience what we experienced here on earth. When we look at God in that way, it becomes cold, and contractual: "I won't do this, because I will go to Hell," (btw, this is how many scrups look at their lives) and if there is ever a "breach of contract" then we have failed God.

But, if we look at our understanding of God less as a contract and more as a personal relationship, we look at things differently. Yes, sin is still sin, but the contrition is more because we hurt Him, we betrayed our love, not just because we fear Hell. And, our desire to go to confession is not to feel better but to restore that broken relationship. If you were to seriously hurt your friend, say, beat him up, you would want to make amends, not just because you feel bad but because you hurt that friendship. If you are married and you cheat on your wife, you don't just feel bad but you regret what you have done and you work to restore that relationship, to mend what was broken.

If we look at God as this High and Almighty entity completely removed, then it is easy to look at the world in the same way, but if we see Him as personal, as knowing every hair on our head, then we should have a different understanding of that same relationship. I once heard a priest completely change my perception of the Ten Commandment, I know he was probably quoting someone else, but still. He said all too often we look at the Commandments as "Thou Shall and Shall Not" rules and regulations that we abide by, and with so many strikes, to Hell we go. But he said, we might look at it rather with this conditional statement: "If you love me..." So that, "Thou shalt not have false gods before you," instead says: "if you love me, you shall not have false gods before you." It is not God forcing your hand, but "if" which means we make the choice.

I like to think of it in this way, when we say "yes" to God we undo the "no" of our first parents, but we have that choice, when we become Catholic, yes, a contract then does exist, but, in the same way as a marriage contract, it is proof that we have professed love and that we are bound to the other person, "till death do us part." Yet, the beauty is that, out of love, death had been destroyed, but we have the possibility of causing greater death, death of our soul. It is no different with God, just look at the Israelite people, they established covenants and God got mad not because they "breached the contract" but because they weakened the covenant.

I have said too much already. But this is something that the conversations with you, Phazzan, Semalsia, and others has brought up and I thought it might help.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1686678' date='Oct 26 2008, 11:03 AM']Couldn't the same be asked of you? [/quote]


interesting question

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686854' date='Oct 26 2008, 06:46 PM']interesting question[/quote]


Yes, something for all of us to reflect upon.

[Hassan]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1686857' date='Oct 26 2008, 06:49 PM']Yes, something for all of us to reflect upon. [/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1686692' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:34 PM']It is interesting, because you have a "knowledge" of faith, you know what it is, and you recognize it, could it be eluding you because you have no given yourself over to it? In other words, asking the Big questions but realizing that for everything there is not an answer?[/quote]

First off I just noticed you were a Priest

nothing get's past me more than a couple of dozen times in a row

I kind of have knoledge of faith in a sense I suppose.

[quote]I hate saying it like that because then it sounds like a cop-out, but think of it this way.

Say you got to a small cave, but had a big backpack on and you could not fit the backpack and yourself in the cave but only yourself, would you leave the pack behind or continue to try to fit both in the cave? Sometimes it is necessary to let go of certain things in order to move forward. I am not saying you abandon reason but you make concession enough so that you can fit in into the "narrow cave."[/quote]

here is the problem. It is not self evident which "cave" to go into.

Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism, Protestantism etc.

None are more self evidently true than any other.

Perhapse there are ways to "narrow" the options down but then it seems that the assent into faith is predicated on an intelectual foundation that brings us to one "cave" over another.

which gets us back to the old problem right?


[quote]Perhaps, a bad analogy, but the point is faith, by its very nature, demands sacrifice. And, if you respond that you don't want to make the sacrifice then you might ask why you are willing to make sacrifices elsewhere but not when it comes to faith.

For example, when you fall in love (Semalsia loves this example) there are certain things that you have to be willing to let go of, or come to an agreement on, if you don't, the relationship suffers as a result.

I have been thinking about this, and you seemed to have affirmed it, all too often we look at God as though He is a far distant creature, rather than personal, someone who came to experience what we experienced here on earth. When we look at God in that way, it becomes cold, and contractual: "I won't do this, because I will go to Hell," (btw, this is how many scrups look at their lives) and if there is ever a "breach of contract" then we have failed God.

But, if we look at our understanding of God less as a contract and more as a personal relationship, we look at things differently. Yes, sin is still sin, but the contrition is more because we hurt Him, we betrayed our love, not just because we fear Hell. And, our desire to go to confession is not to feel better but to restore that broken relationship. If you were to seriously hurt your friend, say, beat him up, you would want to make amends, not just because you feel bad but because you hurt that friendship. If you are married and you cheat on your wife, you don't just feel bad but you regret what you have done and you work to restore that relationship, to mend what was broken.

If we look at God as this High and Almighty entity completely removed, then it is easy to look at the world in the same way, but if we see Him as personal, as knowing every hair on our head, then we should have a different understanding of that same relationship. I once heard a priest completely change my perception of the Ten Commandment, I know he was probably quoting someone else, but still. He said all too often we look at the Commandments as "Thou Shall and Shall Not" rules and regulations that we abide by, and with so many strikes, to Hell we go. But he said, we might look at it rather with this conditional statement: "If you love me..." So that, "Thou shalt not have false gods before you," instead says: "if you love me, you shall not have false gods before you." It is not God forcing your hand, but "if" which means we make the choice.

I like to think of it in this way, when we say "yes" to God we undo the "no" of our first parents, but we have that choice, when we become Catholic, yes, a contract then does exist, but, in the same way as a marriage contract, it is proof that we have professed love and that we are bound to the other person, "till death do us part." Yet, the beauty is that, out of love, death had been destroyed, but we have the possibility of causing greater death, death of our soul. It is no different with God, just look at the Israelite people, they established covenants and God got mad not because they "breached the contract" but because they weakened the covenant.

I have said too much already. But this is something that the conversations with you, Phazzan, Semalsia, and others has brought up and I thought it might help.[/quote]

thank you: )

[TotusTuusMaria]

Thank you, Will.

I am lifting you to God. I don't have the words or the arguments. I couldn't understand half of the terms used, but I know that you’re exhausted and tired. I really think, despite all the intellectual struggles you had, that it was simply a lack of prayer and giving up on confession and the spiritual life. When your not trying to go forward, you fall backward. You just need grace, is all, and we receive that through prayer and the sacraments. I hope you return to them, Will. And I am praying for it every day. You will be my special prayer intention. I am going to thank God everyday for your conversion and peace, because I know He is going to give it to you. I wish I could say more to help you, but like I said ... I am not a quarter as intelligent. I know God will provide someone though, and I am praying.

Thanks Will for posting this. And even if you don't believe in the power of prayer right now, I hope it is some comfort to know that someone is going to be - at least - hoping ardently and daily that you find inner peace.





I still hope to see you as a Franciscan friar... or maybe a Dominican!

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686486' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:44 PM']Yeah, I mean this is a side note but I've always hated that. When girls feel they have to act flighty or dense to be femanine or beautifull/attractive. or that's what I got from the "that's what was expected of me" thing[/quote]

A lot of it was just my family background. There was an awful lot of stoic German influence coming from my father's side of the family. Conversations at the dinner table revolved around things like the job market, football or sports in general, and things like getting new hogs in the spring and chopping wood. Not really the kind of environment where one could comfortably ask "I've been wondering how backwards time travel could be possible without there being the problem of paradoxes. Oh, hey. Could you pass the potatoes please?"

[quote]It sounds like kind of what I went through. What did you do?[/quote]

Well, if I said I read a whole bunch of books, got all my answers and lived happily ever after because I figured it all out, then I would be lying. For what it's worth, every person's situation is different, so what happened with me might not be the same scenario with you or anyone else. But in my case many of my spiritual problems were tied in with emotional issues and undiagnosed clinical depression. For others it's different, of course -- family problems, death of a loved one, substance abuse.... or maybe sometimes for people it simply is just spiritual matters.

I knew a woman who was molested as a child, and these unresolved issues manifested itself through some extremely stringent religious practices. I don't know how she is now, but in her situation there was a lot going on where her religious severity was just making things worse for herself and those around her. I have the utmost respect for people that have the spiritual fitness and calling to live very ascetic lives -- her case was completely different than this.

Anyway, once I went through treatment for depression (and that was kind of a complicated thing in itself), I was able to approach subjects like God in a more positive light and was able to come to terms with the more grey and mysterious areas of life and the fact that we don't have the answers to everything. God only knows how many souls are in heaven versus hell, and there's probably a reason for that. I don't always know why bad things happen to good people. Sometimes life just blows chunks.

I guess the phrase "let go and let God" applied here. I seriously had to lay off of the heavy reading for a while, though. My mom had suggested the psalms during this time and I still go back to them because they're often positive and uplifting. Just simple passages about man's struggles through life and the solace he took in God. I think we also have to come to terms with what it means to "experience God." Some of the saints experienced God through mystical experiences, extacies and visions -- but that doesn't really happen with most of us. I've had some experiences where I was very much emotionally moved, but they have been pretty far and few between.

To me, experiencing God is more than some warm fuzzy feeling in your heart. To me, I experience God through the people around me. Even the people I meet online! I've always been profoundly moved by Mother Teresa, because she struggled with spiritual aridity for much of her life, but she saw Christ suffering in every poor soul she met. That was mostly how she experienced God and served him.

I look at nature and the cosmos, and I just don't see how there couldn't be a God or some kind of divine intelligence behind it. There was a priest on EWTN a while back named Robert Spitzer, SJ, and I was really touched at the eloquent way he was able to delve into the metaphysical arguments on the existence of God. More or less he was able to describe just how delicate our universe is and the way it is fine tuned to sustain life, particularly ours, and it is actually quite astronomically remarkable.

Ultimately, I think belief is a choice. It almost seems to me that you could stick a bunch of people in a library that contains all the books and information in the world, and people will still walk away from it believing or not believing what they want. There is certainly great merit in bolstering your choice, your faith, with reason and having a pragmatic, rational or intellectual argument behind it. I certainly have well thought out reasons why I place my beliefs in the Catholic Church. I will never stop learning, but I think we have to pace ourselves with this stuff. And at the end of the day, we are humans with finite minds and we will never completely be able to get our heads around everything.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1687069' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:26 PM']Thank you, Will.

I am lifting you to God. I don't have the words or the arguments. I couldn't understand half of the terms used, but I know that you’re exhausted and tired. I really think, despite all the intellectual struggles you had, that it was simply a lack of prayer and giving up on confession and the spiritual life. When your not trying to go forward, you fall backward. You just need grace, is all, and we receive that through prayer and the sacraments. I hope you return to them, Will. And I am praying for it every day. You will be my special prayer intention. I am going to thank God everyday for your conversion and peace, because I know He is going to give it to you. I wish I could say more to help you, but like I said ... I am not a quarter as intelligent. I know God will provide someone though, and I am praying.

Thanks Will for posting this. And even if you don't believe in the power of prayer right now, I hope it is some comfort to know that someone is going to be - at least - hoping ardently and daily that you find inner peace.





I still hope to see you as a Franciscan friar... or maybe a Dominican! [/quote]

Thank You: )

[Saint Therese]

I've been praying for you today.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1687085' date='Oct 26 2008, 11:56 PM']I've been praying for you today.[/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1687072' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:29 PM']A lot of it was just my family background. There was an awful lot of stoic German influence coming from my father's side of the family. Conversations at the dinner table revolved around things like the job market, football or sports in general, and things like getting new hogs in the spring and chopping wood. Not really the kind of environment where one could comfortably ask "I've been wondering how backwards time travel could be possible without there being the problem of paradoxes. Oh, hey. Could you pass the potatoes please?"[/quote]

ahh.

side note.

Can I aske you

Did you all ever have to find a pickle ornament on a Christmass Tree?



[quote]Well, if I said I read a whole bunch of books, got all my answers and lived happily ever after because I figured it all out, then I would be lying.[/quote]

yeah, But I like that answer a lot

; )

[quote]For what it's worth, every person's situation is different, so what happened with me might not be the same scenario with you or anyone else. But in my case many of my spiritual problems were tied in with emotional issues and undiagnosed clinical depression. For others it's different, of course -- family problems, death of a loved one, substance abuse.... or maybe sometimes for people it simply is just spiritual matters.

I knew a woman who was molested as a child, and these unresolved issues manifested itself through some extremely stringent religious practices. I don't know how she is now, but in her situation there was a lot going on where her religious severity was just making things worse for herself and those around her. I have the utmost respect for people that have the spiritual fitness and calling to live very ascetic lives -- her case was completely different than this.

Anyway, once I went through treatment for depression (and that was kind of a complicated thing in itself), I was able to approach subjects like God in a more positive light and was able to come to terms with the more grey and mysterious areas of life and the fact that we don't have the answers to everything. God only knows how many souls are in heaven versus hell, and there's probably a reason for that. I don't always know why bad things happen to good people. Sometimes life just blows chunks.

I guess the phrase "let go and let God" applied here. I seriously had to lay off of the heavy reading for a while, though. My mom had suggested the psalms during this time and I still go back to them because they're often positive and uplifting. Just simple passages about man's struggles through life and the solace he took in God. I think we also have to come to terms with what it means to "experience God." Some of the saints experienced God through mystical experiences, extacies and visions -- but that doesn't really happen with most of us. I've had some experiences where I was very much emotionally moved, but they have been pretty far and few between.

To me, experiencing God is more than some warm fuzzy feeling in your heart. To me, I experience God through the people around me. Even the people I meet online! I've always been profoundly moved by Mother Teresa, because she struggled with spiritual aridity for much of her life, but she saw Christ suffering in every poor soul she met. That was mostly how she experienced God and served him.

I look at nature and the cosmos, and I just don't see how there couldn't be a God or some kind of divine intelligence behind it. There was a priest on EWTN a while back named Robert Spitzer, SJ, and I was really touched at the eloquent way he was able to delve into the metaphysical arguments on the existence of God. More or less he was able to describe just how delicate our universe is and the way it is fine tuned to sustain life, particularly ours, and it is actually quite astronomically remarkable.

Ultimately, I think belief is a choice. It almost seems to me that you could stick a bunch of people in a library that contains all the books and information in the world, and people will still walk away from it believing or not believing what they want. There is certainly great merit in bolstering your choice, your faith, with reason and having a pragmatic, rational or intellectual argument behind it. I certainly have well thought out reasons why I place my beliefs in the Catholic Church. I will never stop learning, but I think we have to pace ourselves with this stuff. And at the end of the day, we are humans with finite minds and we will never completely be able to get our heads around everything.[/quote]

yes, Mother Theresa.

I prayed to her a lot come to think of it.

Can I ask what your well thought out reasons are?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686989' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:46 PM']First off I just noticed you were a Priest

nothing get's past me more than a couple of dozen times in a row

I kind of have knoledge of faith in a sense I suppose.[/quote]

That shouldn't scare you. Besides, if you have not noticed, I try to appeal to your intellectual side

I would not say knowledge as much as a sense, something you have experienced before, which was not your typical "knowing" but something else. And, I can hear that in your description

[quote]here is the problem. It is not self evident which "cave" to go into.

Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism, Protestantism etc.

None are more self evidently true than any other.

Perhapse there are ways to "narrow" the options down but then it seems that the assent into faith is predicated on an intelectual foundation that brings us to one "cave" over another.[/quote]

But, just like Pascal, I am trying to help you belief in something before giving you everything. Just like everything in life, it is a process, and does not happen overnight. You cannot undo years of doubt and skepticism in a single hour. God can, but I can't

[quote]which gets us back to the old problem right?[/quote]

See above


[quote]thank you: )[/quote]

You're welcome

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

Wow, Will, first off thank you very much for sharing this with everyone. It has been a long journey for you.

In all honesty, I didn't understand half of what you said because I have not done much philosophical reading. I may be a declared philosophy major and enjoy philosophy immensly, but my experience of it is very slim compared to yours. What I have read a good amount of are the works of the saints, and perhaps when you feel that your intellectual/emotional/spiritual batteries have 'rebooted' perse you could pick up some of their works and read them. I'd recommend [i]The Story of a Soul[/i] by the Little Flower or [i]Introduction to the Devout Life[/i] by St. Francis de Sales: both are amazing works that are actually quite simple and yet profound.

Ultimately, though, as a few others have already said, prayer is what is most important here. I know that you have already promised to try to pray, so I am not trying to pester you in any way shape or form here, just throwing in my own views of this here, as well. Last year I did a thesis study on personal prayer, and for my final project at the end of the year I had to interview some people and get their input on what prayer is. One of the people I interviewed was Fr. Bede, a 92 year old Benedictine monk I had worked with quite a bit on the Christmas Tree Farm and had gotten quite close to. I transcribed a recording of the interview I had with him for my class, and here is a part which I think maybe beneficial. The question I asked him was, "What is your understanding of prayer?" He repeats himself a little bit towards the end, but what he says is so humble and beautiful that I think that I should leave it all there.

[quote]Prayer is conversation with God, it’s talking to God, and we say Hail Marys and Our Fathers, we say the same thing over and it’s what we do when we pray the Hail Marys and the Our Fathers, those are wonderful prayers in themselves, to think of the same thing when we say the Hail Marys one after the other we meditate on the mysteries of the rosary, there’s a contradiction in prayer, we’re praying one thing and we’re thinking something else, when we’re praying the rosary. We’re thinking the mystery of the rosary, so it’s alright.
Prayer is conversation with Christ. Prayer is not always saying words either. You know, I like the story of a very humble saint, he just sat in church, and the (couldn't understand on the recording) would always ask him, “What are you doing in church?” And he said, “I’m looking at Him and He’s looking at me,” that’s perfect prayer, I look at Him and He looks at me, to realize Christ’s Presence in church, it’s in the Blessed Sacrament, and when we pray He’s looking at him, loving him no doubt with his heart, so that’s perfect prayer.
Prayer is just talking to God, and not necessarially words, as we pray to Lord. I don’t know the name of him, but someone was praying and he said, “I’m just looking at Him and He’s just looking at me,” that’s prayer, that’s perfect prayer. So we don’t have to say nice words when we’re praying, He doesn’t need a sermon, He needs our hearts, our mouth, loving God, trusting Him, with all things, that’s what prayer is.[/quote]
Yes, it is important to understand what it is we are doing while we are praying, it is important to understand our faith, but keep in mind that we need to know how to walk before we can learn how to run, and we need to know how to run before we can participate in a race. I'm praying for you, Will, and I really hope that some of what I said helped. If you want me to, I have three interviews of different priests on prayer that I could send to you: just throwing that out there in case you're interested in that. Unless you've changed e-mails since lifeteen shut down, I think I still have your e-mail.

May God bless and protect you always in all of your endeavors!

Your Brother in Christ,

Joe